1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Onyx300pts or Tohaa300pts

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by BlueWhale, Mar 16, 2018.

  1. BlueWhale

    BlueWhale New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2018
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    I've pretty much decided to buy one of these.

    Which one seems "more complete" with little need for additional purchases ?
    Which one may perform better against Haqqislam, Yu Jing and Scots (he might buy Aleph in the near future too) ?

    I'm posting this on both forums to hear you out.
    I can't find any comprehensive fluff on Onyx and Toha (just some podcasts) - can you give me a link ? I would like to read about both armies.
     
  2. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,734
    Likes Received:
    4,654
    Do not buy "as a counter", but as you want to play.

    The Onyx starter can be completed with little more models to have everything you need, or transition to Generic. Also, you have access to EVERYTHING the game has to offer, since CA is "the Alien Sphere" (so, the equivalent to all human factions, but has been reduced so it doesn't get out of hand).
    Sure, the Tohaa also are a race, but... no hacking to begin with. And nothing to use your engineers on, aside from removing some states from your HI/TAG and fulfilling secondaries (no STRucture troops).

    On the other hand, the Tohaa box is a GREAT bargain, you eat the Tohaa starter, but almost everything else is great to have, and it's more or less at 50% of the price if you were to buy everything piecemeal. Onyx, on the other hand, is like buying the boxes one by one and getting the Remotes box for free (nothing to scoff at anyway).

    Plus side: Both of them reduce the efficacy of the Fiday (no need for Biometric Visors), CA gets one on Generic (Speculo Killer, your opponent will field Baos after a while) and is the natural enemy (and the "through a Mirror, Darkly") of Aleph.

    Tohaa is a faction I don't like to suggest to new players, because:
    • It generates dependency for the "frogs" (4 units in your game will be able to negate ALL damage that is not a critical roll, once).
    • It rewards risky behavior (almost all troops have the equivalent to 2 wounds, their HI have 3 unless fire, and their TAG is a waste if a flame hits it).
    • It is one of the boring armies to face (the others being heavy camo ones, like Shasvastii and Ariadna), because you have to kill everything twice (or discover things before shooting them, on the camos side). Your friend's selection point to not appreciating that kind of opponents, frankly.
    • Onyx box is also great to start with Generic. You can use one Rodok as a "diplomat" proxy (the Morat parachutists are called that) and the HMG is great even alone, the remotes are always useful, the Umbra and the Fraacta are hard to not include, and the Unidrons are great fillers. Also, with little extra expense you can reach 300 very effective points.
    If you buy Onyx, mount the EVO and the Total Reaction version of the remotes, those are the most used. Save the parts, you will use at least the missile launcher later (2 magnets with the weapon minus the arm plus a Xeodron equals a conversion for an Overdron, for half the price of the Overdron and a much less fragile weapon).

    Finally, the "must have" for Onyx/CA:
    1. Support Pack. Dr Worm and his two little wormlings are the only Doctor on the whole faction (there are paramedics and engineers on the other subfactions, though), and he is a bargain.
    2. Unidron heavy weapons box. Very nice, very useful for Onyx. in Generic not so much, but...
    3. Ikadron + Imetron blister, twice. VERY nice to have, and the Ikadrons are great troops.
    4. Rodok Missile Launcher and/or a second Umbra Legate (I suggest avoiding the Samaritan model because it's hard to mount, it does not respect Silhouette and it's a b*tch to transport and move).
    5. A Nexus Operative, too needed, specially for Lt shenanigans.
    6. Bit and kiss, and Kerr-Nau, for hacking shenanigans.
     
    unclesrouce and gru6y like this.
  3. BlueWhale

    BlueWhale New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2018
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks !

    This may be worth noting that I'm pretty sure he has no more than 200 points in every of his armies. Eg. this Yu-Jing is straight out of the Red Veil, nothing more. So for now I'll have to deduct sth from my 300pts box and not add more. I can buy a blister alongside this 300pts box but only if it is overpowered or a total staple.

    I'm not interested in hackers and engineers much. I used to like shooting armies with good armour.
     
    #3 BlueWhale, Mar 16, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
  4. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,734
    Likes Received:
    4,654
    Infinity has the ITS, with half of the missions requiring to bring along specialists troops able to do stuff or you won't win even if you kill everything. So this is not the average game were the only important thing is to kill the enemy before they kill you ^^.

    Also, recently there was an update allowing official use of any miniature as any miniature, so both of you can "play around" the points of the box. For example, you can use 2 of the Unidrons as Ikadrons (5 points cheaper), the EVO as a basic cheerleader bot (8 points, so 20 or so cheaper), etc..., while he can use his haqquislamite models as Yu Jing ones, or the other way around.

    Please do note that the game is playtested on the 300pts bracket, so there are several differences in performance between armies at 200 and 400...
     
  5. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,954
    Likes Received:
    1,670
    Well, to be fair, sometimes those missions can be won with minor victory by swapping "kill everything" to "kill everything fast enough" :P

    Especially when it comes to new players who may struggle with all of the following at once: putting down decent defense, having enough models to make opponent chew through them too slowly, having enough well-placed terrain that would prevent games from concluding too early.

    But I'm just kidding tbh. I don't think you could really rely on that a lot, just partially.

    On topic: both boxes are pretty decent compared to direct competition (see Corregidor 300 pts), although you'll still will want to buy quite a lot of stuff to fully exploit your army's possibilities.

    I really think the better question is what faction would you like to play rather than which 300 pts box to buy.
     
  6. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,734
    Likes Received:
    4,654
    I would add that Tohaa's list building, despite being so open to combinations in theory, in practice are limited to 3 or so variations. Plus they ahve a single TAG (bipedal tank, so to speak).

    The Onyx starter, on the other hand, is a much much better long-term invest, since the expansion possibilities are enormous. And you have cheap TAGs (Xeodron and Overdron) to SuperExpensive ones (Sphinx, VERY cheap in money for 106 points, or the Avatar!!!), all the toys at hand, and four-five totally different playstyles (Shasvastii, even if those are due for renovation; Morat for the Assault, Kill, and ignore the absence of Lt; Onyx, who are like a fast attack or heavy attack depending on composition; and Vanilla, where you can mix tons of options).
     
  7. Obeisance

    Obeisance Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2017
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    66
    I think it depends more on what you want from the game. I play Onyx and Tohaa.

    Tohaa was my first faction and to be honest, I kinda regret buying into them. Many of the profiles have multiple wounds (unlike Onyx) and Symbiomates. So all your stuff is super durable. But you don't have five man links (sixth sense level 2 or +3 bs per dude) so you're gonna struggle here and there to win shooting battles. You can't hack for crap. Your one TAG isn't great due to the way fire interacts with Symbiont Armor.

    Tohaa are also not getting any releases this year. We might get a new sectorial later in the year (Triumvirate, which is Combined Army loyalists) but beyond that, nothing. Due to Tohaa's durability, I find them much much much easier to win with. I actually kind of feel like playing Tohaa first really skewed my perception of what is "normal" for models and interactions in the game, I also had literally no idea how hacking worked. Tohaa only have 1-2 models that can suit any given role as well.

    Onyx are the other end of the spectrum. Somewhat fragile, super aggressive, great TAGs, great hacking. Actually kind of challenging to learn to play. I'm actually really enjoying playing Onyx- whom I've only been playing since mid Jan. In Onyx, you get access to the 5 man Unidron link, which is super good.

    Onyx can also expand easily into Vanilla Combined Army, which is what I plan to do. I feel like Tohaa are a kind of a dead end. Don't get me wrong, they're totally viable competitively. Even strong. But as I said, it depends on what you want.

    Each plus a few key pieces?

    If you want to play Tohaa:

    Starter box, Sukeul Commando(s), Support Pack, Rasail Pack.
    Sukeuls are your mimetism/BS13 link leaders. Great pieces.
    Support pack contains Auxillars, who are order monkeys with flamethrowers and baggage. Also Sensor, which is amazing.
    Rasail is a zone denial piece with a viral combi rifle. Great Lt option.

    If you were to play Onyx:
    Starter box, Malignos Hacker, Noctifier Missile Launcher, Unidron SWC, Nexus Specialist(s).
    Malignos is a forward deploying piece with thermoptic camo. The only one.
    Noctifier is a sneaky thermoptic camo dude who messes with your opponent's toys.
    Unidron SWC box gives you the K1 Rifile, Spitfire, Missile Launcher and Plasma Sniper Rifle.
    Nexus are cheap specialists and Lt options. All round good models.

    Who are Onyx?

    The Evolved Intelligence is eternal. In the blink of an eye a species could come into being and grow to become a threat to the EI's research program to essentially become a god.

    The Shasvastii go out and find new worlds and species. When one is found they report back to the fleets and Onyx, always on standby, travel to the system.

    An avatar of the EI comes to the world. A sign of respect. Shows them the benefits of joining the Hegemony. A post scarcity civilisation. It is literally in the planet's interests to join us. We will give you tech, food, whatever you need. Just so long as you divert some of your people to work on some research for us.

    It is of course, join or die. Onyx is both the show of force and the exterminator.

    ...

    Onyx is introduced in the Human Sphere book. All the background is there.
     
    xagroth likes this.
  8. Obeisance

    Obeisance Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2017
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    66
    The way the tournament/game system works, is that you play to 10 points. Different scenarios have different ways of winning.

    Some are about killing the enemy only and you don't need specialists (hackers, doctors, engineers, forward observers, etc)
    Some are about controlling zones and you need to kill and use specialists (to activate terrain pieces for points)
    Some are purely about using specialists (as above) and killing is less important.
    There's even a scenario where the only points you get are from your specialists doing things.

    Onyx has some of the best active turn shooting in the game.
    Onyx has Unidron and Rodoks 5 man links.
    Onyx has 3 man links that have Xeodrons (giant robots), Rodoks, Unidrons and a charactr.
    Onyx has an excellent hacking game.
    Onyx has excellent TAGs.
    Onyx has mediocre armour and not a lot of wounds (hit points).
    Onyx does not have access to smoke grenades (to stop shooting)
    Onyx can, long term, be played in Vanilla Combined.

    Tohaa has good shooting, but can easily get outmatched.
    Tohaa does not get 5 man links.
    Tohaa gets unlimited 3 man links with specific models.
    Tohaa has no hacking game.
    Tohaa has one mediocre TAG.
    Tohaa has ok armor and spams wounds.
    Tohaa has access to smoke and eclipse grenades.
    Tohaa hopes for a new sectorial sometime and is not getting anything this year.
     
    Golem2God and xagroth like this.
  9. BlueWhale

    BlueWhale New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2018
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Obeisance thank you very much for your detailed post(s) !

    Onyx as a glass cannon...Hmm I hoped more for a "mono red haste" style, after listening to their podcast. Attack, attack, attack right from the start and die in the process but do not care about the losses too much because the body count favors you as a winner. I liked Dark Eldar theme but did not enjoy playing them. Menacing invaders dying after the very first autorifle shots fired at them... not for me.

    "Tohaa has ok armor and spams wounds " - sounds like exactly my cup of tea ! I do not care about their army options being limited, I do not intend to buy many figures anyway. BUT if you write openly to be disappointed with them... Plus I've visited their forum and most of them seem to treat Tohaa as a second army. In addition somehow Corregidor and Tohaa 300pts boxes are avalaible everywhere (and often on sale). All of these indicate that this army box is somehow lacking.

    I will have to think it thoroughly. Maybe there is no point to buy any of these and just help him to expand his armies.
     
  10. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,954
    Likes Received:
    1,670
    Onyx are not that kind of glass cannon that dies to rifles more than anyone else. It's that their weaknesses (some of which were admittedly patched) are pretty glaring and abuseable. Keeping your Lt alive is harder for them than on average, for example. Or their TAGs being harder to protect against typical anti-TAG threats (although hacking is now easier to keep away). Things like that.

    But if you like to take hits and not care that much, it's hard to suggest anyone besides Tohaa, to be honest.
     
  11. Obeisance

    Obeisance Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2017
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    66
    Yeah, Tohaa is literally a brick. Quite easy to play.

    If you're going for raw dollar value, I'd grab the Tohaa box and Sukeul K1 Combi Rifle, plus the Sukeul Missile Launcher to proxy as a heavy machine gun.

    The Support box comes with the doctor/engineer Kumotail. Plus the Chaaksa, who are invaluable.

    Rasail is also an A++ piece. But not crucial.

    The Tohaa 300pt box is also very good.

    ...

    Onyx is more fun. =P
     
  12. Obeisance

    Obeisance Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2017
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    66
    The Corregidor box actually isn't amazing because it's full of Brigada. Unless you want to spend half your army on four dudes.

    Tohaa players are salty because it's a running joke we've been left behind. CB seem to have been "one and done" with Tohaa.

    Here's your sectorial. It's competitive, it's got almost everything, but you're not getting anything new.

    You also get a lot of crap for playing with Symbiomates. No releases and crying about Symbiomates made me hop to Onyx.

    That said, don't let me stop you playing Tohaa. They are very solid.
     
  13. Obeisance

    Obeisance Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2017
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    66
    He deleted the post I replied to. =P
     
  14. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    665
    Likes Received:
    1,388
    CB only have 3 army boxes available at a time, the Onyx one has now been discontinued which is why you won't find it as frequently (the other current 300pt box is steel phalanx BTW)

    Both of these options are good but they both have their limitations as stated above. Onyx are a first strike hit hard and fast army but are in that respect brittle and vulnerable to certain things. Tohaa are the endurance army but are special in a lot of circumstances and somewhat of an aberration to the rules in many areas such as multi wounds, unlimited triads, the lack of hacking and the arguably OP Symbiomates.

    Tohaa are everywhere in my local meta at the moment, probably 25% of our local players have some stashed somewhere, usually as a second faction having learnt the ropes on another faction with a more conventional playstyle but there are some exceptions who started on Tohaa and then learnt to cope without triads and super endurance in other factions.
     
    Golem2God likes this.
  15. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,734
    Likes Received:
    4,654
    Correction: CB only sells 2 at a time, right now Steel Phalanx and Corregidor. I just saw a post in the general forum, pointing to a 300 pts box for Military Orders, so I think the Steel Phalanx will stop being available soon.
     
    Golem2God likes this.
  16. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,641
    Likes Received:
    1,832
    Is there a link of this? I would be interested if such a box came out.
     
  17. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,734
    Likes Received:
    4,654
    from https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/may-i-start-this-speculation.3283/page-7 by Arkhos94

    EDIT: it boils down to nearly 100€, CB store price. At the rate of standard 300pts boxes, that is about 20 bucks of discount, so you could say that the Crusader and the Friar get there almost for free
     
    Golem2God likes this.
  18. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,641
    Likes Received:
    1,832
  19. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2018
    Messages:
    1,015
    Likes Received:
    1,078
    The only valid Haris link I can see in Army is for Sam + Xeodrons. All other link options are Core.
     
    Golem2God likes this.
  20. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,734
    Likes Received:
    4,654
    I'd said he means that you can make 3 man Fireteams, a Core can be assembled with 3 after all... Anyway, the Rodok Haris and the Maakrep Haris with an Umbra was asked a lot.
    And the Suryats can make a Duo.
     
    Golem2God likes this.