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Onyx into Vanilla?

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by Obeisance, Dec 12, 2017.

  1. Obeisance

    Obeisance Well-Known Member

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    Hi,

    I'm a newish Tohaa player who is terrible with money and also now has pretty much all of Onyx. (Full sectorial)

    Aside from all of the Morat stuff that isn't Rodoks.

    If you were drifting into Vanilla at some point to play with the Speculo Killer, what other would you pick up and why?

    Also what stuff in Onyx sees play in competitive Vanilla? I know literally nothing about non-Onyx choices.

    Thanks!

    And yes, this is an *I keep an eye on the second hand market" thread. Lol
     
  2. sanyv

    sanyv Active Member

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    I'll answer in my non-competitive experience and impressions.

    What is common between onyx and generic... Some are pretty obvious : Wormy, the Q/M/R/T/E drones, Ikadrons & Imetrons, Noctifier ML, sometimes Nexus, Umbras, Fraacta or Malignos. Yes I know, I've quoted 90% of the sectorial... the TAGs and cheap unidron FO can do it too, in fact, but more depending on the mission :/

    What I use in vanilla that is not in onyx : yes the Speculo as you said, then EI aspects (sooooo much fun ! although I try not to use the same too much), Daturazi (0 to 2 of them), Krakot, Shrouded (although for this one it might be better to wait before buying, later in 2018 they might have a fresh resculpt)
    And more rarely the Avatar, KoDali, Hungries, Kurgat, Aswang.
     
  3. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    If you have Onyx, aside from the Suryats, then you only need the Daturazi box (convert 1 or 2 to pose as Krakot if needed), the Speculo (will be resculpted, but who cares), and the Charontid or Skiavoros (on the table, on your box you want both). That's it, you can be competitive with just that.

    Then, of course, you can spend as much as you want to buy more things.
     
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  4. Reece

    Reece EI Aspect
    Warcor

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    For the Shrouded, just get a Seed Soldier or the Corax to proxy.
     
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  5. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    The Corax lady is quite the model, frankly. I love the whip-conversion, but even the stock one is great ^^
    (source)

    14372037045_054fe86974_o.jpg
     
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  6. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I'm in a similar boat here. Just picked up a Daturazi box and have the Avatar with the Charnotid on pre-order. I'm looking at getting Ana and Skiavoros soon, but after that, I'm at a loss as to what to get. I KNOW I'll be going all in once the Shas revamp comes, so I'm more reluctant to be purchasing those models right now...
     
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  7. Obeisance

    Obeisance Well-Known Member

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    Do Onyx players use the Makreep Tracker? Seeing as how she's the only source of MSV2.

    Otherwise, what other options do you use to handle ODD/TO/etc? I could see Steel Phalanx being a pain.
     
  8. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I'm a bad example here, since I've been used to roll without MSV a lot, but... Templates. Place the Sphinx in front of a SP fireteam and see how your opponent's mind blowns: go for mutual destruction, or save the troops? If he breaks the Fireteam it's usually 1 HRL at -12 (cover, TO and distance) or -9 (no cover) against 4 Spitfire rolls at -6 (OOD, inside of short range)... or use an Ikadron (6-2 movement...). Also the Umbra Legate is quite interesting for this, since he has the shotgun and mimetism, and can engage in intimate dances easily.

    Frankly, the problem I see with the Maakrep is the extra cost of the Automedikit (seldom used, since you prefer to have a 3 pts servitor close by), and how "fragile" it is compared to other ARO pieces, meaning you will prefer to use her as a rambo with the HMG... but you have no smoke.
     
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  9. Reece

    Reece EI Aspect
    Warcor

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    I agree. I've only used the Maakrep in a two tournaments and either didn't use her much or wished I had something else. For some reason, she always dies to Shock anyway.

    As Xagroth said, we've got TONS of other tools.

    Now, if the Maakrep had Transmutation like the Fraacta, different story. But she doesn't, so she stays home.
     
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  10. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I hate the Maakrep in Onyx. It offers so very little and pays for tech that is not very useful for its role. SSL1 helps within ZoC but is that really going to occur at any regularity? AutoMedKits are situational and weak.

    Offensively it has no mods to work with such as smoke or Mim/ODD. It's slow at 4-2 with no deployment skills. A paltry 12BS. Not a specialist unless you give up the heavy weapons. It's a fragile attack piece as well. Possibly the worst active turn killer anyone could pick imo.

    Defensively as an ARO it has 1W, 2ARM, 3BTS, and no mods. Not stellar. MSV2 is a nice option to cover enemy movement through smoke, no doubt. I just don't think that alone justifies the Maakreps inclusion in any list. It is quite simply too easy to remove.

    When it comes to ODD/TO troopers I prefer to avoid them if at all possible. Mine their advance. Otherwise templates and shotguns work. Ikadrons and Fraacta are great for this. Umbra's can deal with most things in CC. Fireteams with Rodok HMG or Unidron sniper is an option. M-Drone triangulated fire if need be. Coordinated orders if available.
     
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  11. TheDiceAbide

    TheDiceAbide Thank you for your compliance.
    Warcor

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    For me, when playing vanilla after playing Onyx for a while the units I really look at are: Shrouded, Speculo, Anyat, Krakrot, Zerat, Charontid, Anathematic, Avatar, Kornak, and Ko Dali.
     
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  12. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    No Daturazi? They seem like almost an auto include... and certainly make the Maakrep twice as good as in Onyx. Hell, not including the Avatar (because... how could I NOT buy that), they were my first non-Onyx purchase.
     
  13. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Unless you make a conversion (two of them as Krakot) or break the box with another player, it gets a little to expensive in cash. As for the Avatar, it's awesome but limiting: half your list is him, meaning you get little more options.
    The Maakrep... gets totally overshadowed by the Charontid HMG lt with MSV3 as an offensive piece, and as defensive... well... too fragile.
     
  14. Gaffles

    Gaffles Member

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    Automedkit drives the price of the maakrep too high imo for model with only 11 phys ( needs 8s or lower for it to work). The greater occurrence of shock weaponry (no chance to auromedkit) nowadays also hurts.

    Personally i think transmutation and a small points increase instead of automedkit would have been better and it would also go well fluff wise with the other sygmaa in the faction (the fraacta).
     
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  15. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Heck, look at the Djanbazan... and they have Regeneration (inmunne to Shock, no -3 to self heal...). The 6th sense Lv1 is quite situational (should be only on the HMG profile, really... or give her a MSV3) so...
     
  16. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    "Twice as good" doesn't mean "worth it", though I have had one good game where I actually brought two in Onyx (1 HMG and 1 MSR). It was a fairly open table with vis MOD terrain facing vanilla CA, so the choice wasn't that hard. The MSR took out just about all of the warbands and they bounded up the table in the open and the HMG managed to tag a structure off his Avatar before going down.

    But yeah... situational at best. Transmutate would be awesome. Just a Haris option would make them competitive in many of my lists. Do agree that they should probably just get rid of Automedkit. That's just bloat on a PH 11 model. SSL1, however, I've found useful for when the opponent tries an assassination attempt with an infiltrator.
     
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  17. Plebian

    Plebian Well-Known Member

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    Charontid and Anathematic would be my main reasons to run Vanilla over Onyx. Also access to smoke, but you forbade talk of morats!
     
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  18. Styx

    Styx Cat.IE~~

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    Automedikit don't apply -3PH, just roll as 11PHs to wake up in this case on the Makreep natural PH.

    AUTOMEDIKIT ENTIRE ORDERNon-Lootable.REQUIREMENTS

    The user of this piece of Equipment must be in Unconscious state.

    EFFECTS
    • This piece of Equipment allows its user to spend the Entire Order required to activate it despite being in a Null state.
    • The user of AutoMediKit must spend one Entire Order and then make a PH Roll.
    • If the PH Roll is successful, the user recovers one point of Wounds automatically, canceling the Unconscious state and removing the Unconscious Marker from the game.
    • If the PH Roll fails, the user enters the Dead state directly and must be removed from the game.
    • Using AutoMediKit, troopers can recover from the Unconscious state as many times as desired, as long as they keep declaring Entire Orders and passing their PH Rolls.

    I will see the Makreeps the same rules like the Fraacta's, maybe the problem are the automedkit on a ligth profile with 1 wound, and the sixt sense lvl 1 too its a bit casual option on an ARO close range turn, only works against droptroop/warband on short distances engangers in your deploy zone with the Makreep. I think, the Makreep on the same rules like the Fraacta can be cool and better cheap than now, excluding the price of the sixt sense lvl 1, to get a free points or a new weaponry set-up, but... the diferences on this twoo units are from the MSV2 and the 1 point on WIP, maybe this "new Makreep" are very cheap than actual.

    So; Transmutation + MSV2 + Courage.

    1st form: 4-4 (10-10) MOV, 14 CC, 12 BS, 12 PH, 12 WIP, 1 ARM + 3 BTS 1 W.
    2scnd form: 4-2 (10-5) MOV, " " , "" , "" , 2 ARM + 6 BTS 1 W.

    I think on this.
     
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  19. Obeisance

    Obeisance Well-Known Member

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    What's in a typical 300pt vanilla list?

    I'm curious to see what people run.

    Are the HI morats good? I Just see the Daturazi and Zerats being played.
     
  20. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Ok, I stand corrected (on my defense, there has been ages since I fielded a Maakrep, and my last Speculo rolled a 20 for the Automed...)

    A vanilla list usually goes with an EI aspect as Lt, if the aspect is a Charontid with MSV (HMG, for example) then 1-3 Daturazi, a Fraacta or a Rasyat depending on the mission (Rasyat are more "go and kill", and are useful for the "go and break this enemy structure with Antimaterial melee weapons", specially thanks to his Eclipse smoke), a Speculo killer (almost always), and then it depends a lot. So, the real main difference between Onyx and Vanilla are the Aspect Lt and the Speculo Killer. Morat are less used because you are overpaying (entering Loss of Lt with an Aspect as Lt is hard, the enemy needs to apply Isolated to your Lt) and for assault troops you will be using the Lt aspect.

    Sadly the Army refuses to load atm for me, but a typical list might be:
    Charontid HMG MSV3 Lt
    Umbra legate H+
    Bit& Kiss
    Fraacta (boarding shotgun)
    Shrouded (FO) & Shrouded (AHD)
    Speculo Killer (Boarding Shotgun)
    Daturazi chain rifle x3 (cheapest profile)
    For a total of 300 pts and 4.5 SWC.
    (this list lacks any healing options, the AHD Shrouded can be exchanged for a Dr Worm + 2 slave worms, or if you think you need the AHD, take out the FO and fit the Dr Worm with a single slave worm)

    If you want to go the "order spam" route, you can exchange the Charontid for a Skiavoros Lt, and the Daturazi for 2 Ikadrons, 2 Imetrons, a total reaction, and an 8 pts remote... And you can try to fit an Overdron in there.