Oniwaban load out- smg or BS?

for me it is almost always going to be the cheaper SMG profile. If you want a template you've got the nanopulsar. This loadout gives you the ability to stack mim-6 and suppressive fire mods making for a good roadblock once you've (hopefully) killed your prime targets.

 

Yeah supp fire adds a whole new function as roadblock to him. In turns 1-2 I'll probably still recamo him to preserve the asset, but if protecting something more vital or in Turn 3 of a mission that's not about survival, that supp fire for -9 to -12 is pretty dang good.

 

I'm going to go ahead and say that the Oniwaban is in a awkward spot at the moment. The thing these weapons, both the SMG and the BSG, have, is that, their bonuses are within template ranges. So, most likely you will be shooting your targets on 11s (best case scenario here, denying cover) all the way down to 5s (cover and mimetism-3), quite easily, just to avoid being template'd, these aren't numbers you want to run on a 30 point skirmisher.

So you say that, Oniwaban aren't made to shoot, but to CC. Well, truth is, Oniwaban aren't that great at CC. They're CC 24 (27) on one die, and it's all fun and games until you roll 1-6, which are all dices opponents can beat on a moderate chance (even if they don't have any CC prowess whatsoever), and there you will feel the hopelessness of 1W, ARM 1 Oniwaban. But before we go there, you have to actually reach CC, you either roll for Infiltration (with a 25% chance of failing and having a 30 point cheerleader) or rely heavily in Camo state. There's no Berserk, there's no Climbing Plus, they're 4-4 Mov, to sum up, they really do not have any good approach tools other than Infiltrating on 15s. And sure, you can spend an obscene amount of orders on them, but then you need to ask yourself if you could be doing something more valuable (getting your guns out of the DZ, for example, since JSA caps notoriously at the 24" range band).

The SMG being able to Suppressive Fire is also a trap, imo. You really don't want to risk 30 points units out there in ARO, however desperate and late game it is, chances are the opponent will have something to ignore your Mimetism (smoke, a suicidal 5pt chain rifle, dodging into b2b, there are a lot of tactics). A Suppressing Oniwaban is a winning play once in a blue moon.

For 2 more points in comparison with the SMG, or 2 less points in comparison to the BSG, you can get Saito Togan: he's as good in CC as the Oniwaban, packs a Combi Rifle (he's as good shooting as an Oniwaban, but at least he can get good range angles outside template ranges), loses the Superior Infiltration, but in compensation gives you Smoke (which is one of the better ways to get yourself into CC)!

TL;DR: just play Shinobu Kitsune, she's really bonkers now. But if you really must go for Oniwaban, I'd go for Saito Togan instead. And don't Suppressive Fire, just hide them in Camo.

 

Your take on the Oniwaban is interesting, but you've missed one detail: the CC weapon choices the Oniwaban brings to the table, Pistol, EM and Monofilament.
Regarding SMG vs BSG, I also favour the SMG because of the reasons already given in the other posts.

 

Small nitpick here, but an Oniwaban can't really roll that low as it becomes 8-13 which is very difficult to beat, even for units paying a premium for their CC such as Zhanshi.

P.s. I prefer Oniwaban over Saito. Saito/Shinobu doesn't make a good smoke dispenser, it's more of a scalpel tool for him where on most other units it's a force multiplier. Making an infiltration roll on a Ninja type unit can be a game winning roll so the bonus to it is pretty huge, if scary to use.

 

Sure, but the number of targets that you are better using the E/M instead of Monofilament, or shooting them in the back with 3 AP/Shock bullets or 2 AP slugs is really, really small. As for the Pistol, both Saito and Kitsune pack one as well, so the plays you can make with it, all of the 3 units can do it.

Small nitpick on your small nitpick here, an Oniwaban can roll and will roll that low, just that the result will become 8+ because of how values above 20 work.

Smoke ammunition is very versatile, Saito/Shinobu are as good smoke dispenser as any unit that can throw smoke is, the way you use them dictates how effective it is.

As for the Infiltration roll sometimes be a winning play, I agree with this 100%. That's why I prioritise Shinobu and will actively downgrade something else in the list in order to fit her in, the added 5% on your success chance might not seem palpable but it's there: it's more the case of, you are not always infiltrating past the middle line, but when you do, you gotta make it count.

 

I usually favour Shinobu over the plain Oniwaban because of that +1PHY: last time I used her I succeded the Infiltration roll with a 16, I got cold sweat for a moment. Sadly, my oponent knew what was eventually coming for him, so I lost the surprise factor. Anyway, 44 points and .5 SWC is not cheap, so I only use her from time to time.

And regarding the DMG15 EM attack, it is reliable against enemy Lt's as the oponent has to potentially roll 3 dice with halved BTS. Monofilament is great against big targets, but sometimes the enemy keeps rolling 13's and just isolating his Lt would cripple your oponent's army.

 

Shit... I got a cold sweat as well, reading the 16. >_<
In tourneys, I usually take one list with Shinobu in. Everyone knows about it. I couldn't care less, Shinobu always brings home some points, sometimes she wins the game on the spot.

I'm not saying otherwise, I'm just saying the number of times that you go: "Yeah, E/M CCW this trooper is the best play!" are really small. You could just shoot them instead, with the added safety of Mim-6 and cover and be on equal, if not, better odds of winning the F2F (you might spare some orders too, shooting at a distance).

 

Point is, beating a value of 8 isn't very likely for a unit without CC prowess and that value happens very rarely. Even the more average CC prowess of a generic HI will be needing to roll very close to their crit value and their resulting attack is much closer to what I'd call a "moderate" roll for the Oniwaban to tank.
With a successrate of over 75% and a risk of less than 5% (fighting almost anything with less than 20 effective CC, much better if it's an LI) we can safely consider them very good in melee. Just avoid NBWs, because Oniwaban don't belong to the best as of N4.

Smoke is versatile and good, but using a >36 point unit to provide smoke for <25 points units is doing it reversed compared to other factions. They'll also prioritize somewhat different positions than your typical dispenser and since the smoke will be much closer to the enemy side than yours, it will also block less vision to most of your units making each smoke template less impactful.
When people complain about MSV + Smoke, they usually think of an impetuous unit activating, tossing smoke on the MSV user, spending literally no orders, and hey presto the MSV user has "Mimetism-6 and camo" (those are heavy air quotes) against targets without Sixth Sense. Saito and Shinobu doesn't really do that, if you use them for that reason you're paying a premium in both points and gameplay opportunity - which, again, isn't saying that this is always a bad idea, just that you could likely be using that smoke and that unit to hurt your opponent a lot more.
Having Saito with any amount of orders standing in smoke in your DZ is not a situation anyone want to face.

I did some mock up numbers and the monofilament numbers aren't actually all that great clocking in at around 65%. I think you'll typically want to use the Mono for clean up once E/M has done its thing rather than as your primary weapon, even against heavy targets - if order count permits.

Tactially, yes shooting may often be a better choice.
Better odds than melee, no you're almost never going to have better odds and even when you do your opponent will have to forget Dodge is a skill they can use - unless we're talking about a unit that's actually competent in melee such as a Hospitaller or 45th.

 

My favourite Smoke dispenser for JSA is the Kuroshi Rider. Rolling on 12's is not very good, but the extended range of the Grenade Launcher and then her own awesome mobility helps a lot.
The only problem is that her base is BIG, and sometimes difficult to hide. Current ITS rules help her a lot as now she can deploy as non-Impetuous and, at least, claim partial cover.

 

I agree with a lot of points made here. I actually wish Shinobu and Oniwaban could apply MA to monofilaments but whatever I guess I'm also sour about NBW mercing them...

Would continuous damage on nanopulsers be worth 2 or less points? This would make them a huge threat in cqb against groups and add to their efficiency. It'd also be more believable of what nanobots are.

I've been trying to get CC dodge idea off the ground and perfected so certain troops like Oniwaban can be effective in tight spaces for the ARO.

As for shooting withing Template range. I dont recommend this against large tear drop cause there is too much room for error but against small tear drops. If you can get the angle right. Fire at them outside of small teardrop range. They'll either declare ARO small teardrop in which case you stay put or they declare ARO with a BS weapon needing to roll dice, then, you walk to the position where you're in +3 and they are out of cover. Yes you'll be put of cover too but you have the active turn advantage including surprise attack (hopefully) and you still have mimetism -6. Feel free to run the dice calculator on it, you'll get much better odds than trying to play it safe from a distance. You wont always get the angle and distance opportunity but if you train your eye, you get an edge in the game. And, if they do survivenyoure barrage, you'll be that much closer so in the next order even if they do template you, you'll be able to engage should your dodge succeed...

imagine if my CC attribute Dodge suggestion gets a green light, even if it you receive a -6 penalty you'd still dodge on 18 in the active turn if you can manage to get within 4" in your first move value.

I dont think inwould take much to make Oniwaban worth the points to bring more than just the character.



In relation to the DTW thread in rules suggestions. Imagine if DTWs became a +6 no mods roll against everyone under the template. That actually might be a saving grace to Oniwaban. I would still want to apply surprise attack to reactive turn DTWs (fair). This way the opponent would have to pay for a whole team of DTW freaks in order to contend with the attacking Oniwaban or break the link in several ways and the Oniwaban can impose surprise attack to the Dodgers and the shooters. CB can easily improve the cover unit for JSA...

 

I'm far from being pro (or even advanced), but right now I don't see much "space" for Oniwabans.
If I have points I would probably take Shinobu or just for 36 points there is Saito, both have Smoke.

I guess their biggest weakness right now is fact that they lost B2 in CC. Yes, I know they have BSG template or SMG, but without smoke I find them really risky to deploy in the opponent half of table and trying to go for "big hits".

In general, I like how CB "simplified" CC rules, but on the other hand this change make many good CC units (those with MA4) get weaker (and on top of that CB start pushing cheap CC "monsters" like Beasthunters or Diggers)