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Oniwaban in N4

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Catspaw, Aug 22, 2020.

  1. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Depends a bit further, the EM can quite easily neutralise a TAG/HI so you might want to hit them with that first and then use the mono (or move on to another target) remember that the EM benefits from both +3 DAM and halving BTS!
     
  2. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Well, I think for greater than 4 BTS still might need more math cause it's effectively double action, likely 3 roles if it crits not calculating the Damage bugg for MA. Vs the Mono which is just one save possibly two on a crit. I think because bringing it is going to be if youre not building your list around kitsune being your alpha strike and you end up not having the points at the end.

    List building with JSA I find fun and relatively strait forward. We know JSAs best attackers are the Oniwabans and Kitsune, effectively just Kitsune. But Infinity being mission specific, sometime building your list around your attack game wont win the game, so we focus more on say ninjas and fireteams for holding the table and grabbing objectives and then...
     
  3. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Considering the EM CCW causes two DAM15 hits at half BTS, the Oniwaban is now significantly better against scrubs in CC!
     
  4. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    The argument here isn't the Oniwaban getting better though.
    It's how far behind he laggs behind Kitsune.
    MA5 and +1 CC is more than twice as good at winning FTF rolls and doesn't need follow up after Immobilizing.
    E/M doesn't incapacitate anything that's not a HI, REM or TAG either, which does apply to the majority of CC troops, winning a FTF against most CC troops still leaves them perfectly capable to kill you on the next FTF roll.
     
  5. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    He's 6-10 points cheaper than Kitsune, that's a fair amount.

    As for your second point, you do realise that each failed roll against an EM CCW causes a wound due to the new combined ammo types rule? They can cause up to 3 Wounds on a crit in addition to the EM effects.
     
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  6. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Naa in CC he still crits on 13+ so 40% of his successful hits are 3 saves
     
  7. Catspaw

    Catspaw Well-Known Member

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    I honestly cannot believe how ridiculous E/M CC weapons are right now... essentially Breaker + DT + a chance to isolate/imm-2 HIs, REMS, and TAGs? That being said I still think that, given the nerf to Infiltration, I would probably take Saito over Oniwaban if I can't afford Shinobu. I guess we'll just have to see how useful the new BSG and E/M CCW are in practice.
     
  8. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    How does DA + E/M CC work?

    Asking for my Domaru who are just as confused as I am.
     
  9. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Domaru don't get DA+EM.
     
  10. Catspaw

    Catspaw Well-Known Member

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    E/M CCW has a built in DA effect that deals wounds because of the combined ammunition rule. However if you're asking about Oyama who has both E/M CCW and DA CCW, since duel wielding is no longer a thing you have to choose between using one or the other. E/M CCW would target half BTS with DA, while DA CCW would target ARM. Both attacks would gain Shock because of the Domaru/Oyama's CC Attack (Shock) skill.
     
    #70 Catspaw, Sep 28, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
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  11. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Yup, I meant Oyama. Thanks for the explanation.
     
  12. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    He has two separate weapons, you choose DA or EM.
     
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  13. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Yeah Separate wepons.

    E/M CCWs are N+E/M by default, same as N3 though.
    So every hit is now 1ARM+2BTS/2, +1 extra ARM on Crits.


    Scratch that, Save Type is BTS, so it's 2 BTS/2 causing a wound, Iso and IMM-B each.
    Unlike Plasma which hase Save Type ARM+BTS.
     
    #73 Teslarod, Sep 28, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  14. Aldo

    Aldo Spare 15

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    That's not how EM CCWs work, tho

    It's 2 BTS/2 and every failed roll is 1W+Isolated+IMM
     
  15. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    No, check the combined ammo rules, every hit is 2 BTS/2 rolls with each failure causing a wound and EM effects, 3 rolls on a crit.
     
  16. kagemaru

    kagemaru Member

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    ok i admit isnt a nerf, but before MA had very defined levels, ma 1 was worse than 2, 2 than 3, 3 than 4, etc..., maybe the worst level was 5, right now, there is no difference between level 2 and 4, only damage, and in this game is more important hit than make damage, because almost all rolls are faced.

    E/M CCW is nice but not amazing, it cost is the same than DA, only you must watch domaru AP version 20, E/M version 21, and ninjas AP version 30, DA version 31, the problem with oniwaban is not that it does not kill, but that it does not differ from the ninja, you are paying for 3 more points, plus 1 hit CC, plus 1 damage CC, plus 1 inche to dodge, really do u think is worthy?, before in N3 at least you had a superninja with better infiltration, but right now, you only have an expensive ninja, that does not contribute anything new

    in my opinion Oniwaban need a reroll, and redesign, make another things than a ninja, maybe like a cheaper shinobu with smoke and climbling plus, you can meditate about others tactis, but right now is to get a ninja cheaper o more expensive..., the truth is that I am a bit disappointed, I thought that in this edition this type of thing would be corrected

    and Saito is in similar he is in a similar situation, or even worse, since all the beaters got a cost reduction and earned something except him
     
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  17. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    COMBINED SAVING ROLL:
    Some weapons in Infinity N4 may require a Saving Roll against different Attributes. These weapons will indicate the different combined Attributes with the plus sign (ARM+BTS for example). When a Critical is obtained with a weapon with a Combined Saving Roll, the target must make an additional Saving Roll against the ARM Attribute

    Rereading that and the Plasma example like 3 times.... yup you're right, E/M CCW lists only a BTS saving roll, so that's all against 2BTS/2 alright.
    That's still significantly worse than B2 +1 CC in my book though.

    With the sheer amount of DTWs in the game I want that Combi every game to not die to a LSG, BSG, Chainrifle, Nanopulser ....etc.
    6 Points is very competetive pricing for Nanopulser, PH13, BS12, BTS3, Smoke and C+ (BS12 and C+ are new for N4).

    Infiltration +3 is actually eating the -3 from Infiltration rolls according to the example. So if you still want to roll it's at straight PH12/13 for Oni/Kitsune, which means you're likely gonna use it less and start from the middle line. Where that Combi, C+ and Smoke come in very handy.
     
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  18. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    They have the Attribute levels and MODs to get the hit. But now we’re in the edition where Crits still need to get through the target’s ARM or BTS, so Damage very much does matter.

    Please please read the rest of the thread. EM CCWs are massively more effective than DA CCWs, and against a wider variety of targets.

    Yes. 3pt is a bargain, considering how much more effective they are than a Ninja.

    +1 CC has a non-linear increase in effectiveness once you’re over 20.
    +1 Damage also matters, for the reasons listed above, but it’s more than +1 because most targets have lower BTS than ARM, and the BTS is also being halved.
    +1” on Dodging also matters, because that’s one of the safest ways of getting into CC in N4, because the Oniwaban can Active Turn Dodge a full 4” without that movement triggering AROs.

    My concern is that Oniwaban being only 3pt more expensive means that the SMG Ninjas won’t be taken very often.
     
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  19. Catspaw

    Catspaw Well-Known Member

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    I suspect you might be right when it comes to the baseline SMG ninja, but that new hacker SMG profile is pretty tasty.
     
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  20. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Additional news - I don’t know how long it will be before Army is updated with this, but Infiltration (+3) on the Oniwaban and Shinobu is a typo, it’s supposed to be +6.
     
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