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Oniwaban in N4

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Catspaw, Aug 22, 2020.

  1. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    OK, but I thought we were still talking about Direct Template Weapons and the Shotgun changes.
     
  2. kagemaru

    kagemaru Member

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    Infiltration, direct template, martial arts..., everything is terrible on him..., why get an oniwaban when you have cheaper ninjas and they do exactly the same..., youll never go to infiltrate with 40% chance to fail..., is too risky, i mean..., why do you go superior infiltration when you can go normal infiltración without make a dice...

    martial arts 4 , basically es the same to level 3 and 2...,

    Shotgun isnt good weapon for oniwaban, and less if you dont go in superior infiltration,

    oniwaban is a lost char the staff must be to do a new redesign for him..., is worth pay the cost for ma 4,

    In the other hand shinobu got a good buff, BS 12, climbing plus, ma 5, it's a big difference from the previous levels
     
  3. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    No it isn’t. Use the EM CCW and MA4 takes the Oniwaban up to Damage 15 for killing stuff with low armour or few wounds, where the MonoCCW isn’t a good choice anyway.


    See up-thread, Surprise Attack works with DTWs. Or you can just go for the cheaper SMG option anyway.

    To be blunt, you haven’t read through N4 enough. The SMG Oniwaban is only 3pt more than an SMG DA CCW Ninja, and having the choice of Monofilament or N+EM CCWs is already enough to justify the price difference.
     
    Abrilete likes this.
  4. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Wait a minute, how many people complaining about the Oniwaban have read the rules for Combined Ammunition, and applied that to the N+EN Ammunition of an EM CCW?
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    E/M CCW is each hit causes two rolls at half BTS. Each failed BTS save results in 1 W/STR damage, Isolation and if target is TAG/REM/HI also causes IMM-A

    I.e. in most cases much better than a DA CCW

    Correct?
     
  6. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Exactly. It’s better than DA in all circumstances except where Anti-materiel is required.
     
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  7. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Exactly. It’s better than DA in all circumstances except where Anti-materiel is required.

    EDIT, apart from where the target’s BTS is more than double their ARM, and even then the Isolated and potential IMM-B States edge it towards the EM CCW.
     
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  8. Fed4ykin

    Fed4ykin Well-Known Member

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    The ccw. Weapons and MA4 are good. Especially with combined ammonition.

    Maybe you can help me get to peace with DT mode. My biggest problem is, you have to get incredibly close as a chainrifle and then a chainrifle has the bif teardro, or are we still allowed to shoot(without roll) from range and place the template so wie out range chainrifles and colts that would straight up delete the oniwaban?

    I have a little child so the time to read all the rules is really sparse... In a few years he will play infinity with me, I hope.
     
    wuji likes this.
  9. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    In Blast Mode it’s a standard Direct Template Weapon. It’s effectively a Burst 2 Damage 14 Chain-colt in that mode.
     
  10. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    With Oniwaban you have to figure out whats best to CC (tanky big dog or hard to shoot goon) and what's best to shoot (bunched juicy fireteam). That being said, I would avoid Warbands unless you know you can take them. But in reality with the 15 unit cap, you're wasting the Oniwaban on meager cannon fodder. JSAs gun game is decent but you have to remove the enemy's reach first then you can ARO shoot his warbands when they charge. Maybe trade piecemeal tanking as much as you can with Domaru, that's what they are made for. But really, Ryuken are your designated ARO pieces in most cases.
     
  11. Fed4ykin

    Fed4ykin Well-Known Member

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    Sad that the range advantage is gone. But I will habe to play and try it out. It's all dry theory right now. Maybe I will be positive surprised
     
    ijw likes this.
  12. Thomashkis

    Thomashkis Active Member

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    We can discuss loadouts, advantages of one CCW over another CCW, we can complain about the shotgun change (or praise it), but all these things don't really matter that much.
    It's because the biggest change to Oniwaban (and Kitsune) is the substantial nerf to a skill previously known as Superior Infiltration. Instead of succeeding 3 out of 4 times (in case of Oniwaban) or 4 out of 5 times (in case of Kitsune) we get a success rate of 3 out of 5 (in case of Oniwaban) and 2 out of 3 (in case of Kitsune). It is especially visible with the Oniwaban, we are down to almost 50/50 chance to get a successful infiltration on enemy half of the table. All the impersonators are laughing at our Oniwabans now, trying to field the Oniwaban on the enemy half is a huge gamble now. And the 3 points reduction to the cost doesn't even start to compensate for such a nerf, especially with worse MA4.

    Honestly, Kitsune and Oniwaban are in my opinion biggest losers of N4 in JSA and I know I will be using them much less frequently
     
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  13. kagemaru

    kagemaru Member

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    at least kitsune got bs 12, climbing plus, and ma 5 is much better than n3, and she go with combi and smoke, all for less 3 points to previus edition, so isnt a great problem use her with normal infiltration, but oniwaban is literally death, he need a rework sadly

    the nerfs to ma 4 hurts
     
  14. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    You’re going to have to explain that one.
     
  15. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    If you want to slice things in half with a monofilament CCW, you're much better off with Shinobu Kitsune. The extra burst makes a world of difference there, and puts her at roughly the same odds she had in N3 (high 80s).

    However, the new E/M CCW is pretty bonkers, and to get that you need a basic Oniwaban, not the named character. It's pretty egregious against almost any target.
     
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  16. Thomashkis

    Thomashkis Active Member

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    Well, kagemaru, you are right that some aspects of Kitsune have been improved. However, gone are the days where you appear out of nowhere just outside enemy Deployment Zone, throw some smoke and start slaughtering their backline in close combat. And these kind of epic, dynamic and exlosive action is exactly what has drawn me into Infinity and JSA in particular.

    I am aware of the fact that I still can use Kitsune as a midfielder with Hidden Deployment, Mimetism -6 amd workable BS weapon, but that's much less entertaining.
     
  17. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    New Oniwaban is only really worse against multi wound targets with low CC that are immune to EM.

    Against anything with high CC MA3 was already better than MA4 in N3, Oniwaban is now even better against those targets due to higher CC.

    Against anything with 1W and low CC nuMA4 is better due to the DAM bonus when using the EM CCW (which is essentially a DA CCW with breaker plus the EM effect)

    Against any HI or TAGs the EM CCW is insane, and still more likely to land a wound than old MA4 due to the DAM bonus.
     
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  18. Catspaw

    Catspaw Well-Known Member

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    So in summary, when it comes to CC for the Oniwaban
    • Use Monofilament when the target has >4 BTS and/or >2W
    • Use E/M in all other cases.
     
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  19. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Except everything has higher CC now.
     
  20. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    N4 MA4 is just N3 MA3 for something with a Mono CCW.

    Unless you want to argue the E/M CCW is a huge buff the Oniwaban lost the option to buff his damage against scrubs without CC Special Skills with B2.

    Which is in addition to his BSG no longer having an ITW, a lot more things having DTWs and Shinobu pulling ahead by gaining C+ and a nice discount (she also has a Nanopulser, so DTW access is here too).

    I can remember an official CB article about Toni getting axed because she was a straight up improvement over the Oniwaban and that sort of thing has been bad design - not my words, CB's.
    However, looking at a bunch of former MA4 troops like Al Djabel and Shinobu, it seems someone forgot about that.

    Count the troops with access to MA3 in N3 vs the troops in N4 with access to MA2. Both are +3/-3. CC went up across the board, Surprise Attack is only -3 now. N3 Oniwaban could handily dispatch most CC23 MA2 troops no problem. N4 Oniwaban starts sweating against anything baseline competent in CC.
    Berserk no longer working on ARO helps. A lot better CC baseline and MA2 on NBW as well as more common NBW certainly didn't. Loved the N3 Onowaban and ran him over Shinobu/Saito for his BSG frequently. N4 Oniwaban is never going to see a table for me :/
     
    #60 Teslarod, Sep 27, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
    kagemaru likes this.
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