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Oniwaban in N4

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Catspaw, Aug 22, 2020.

  1. Catspaw

    Catspaw Well-Known Member

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    Now that the BSG is becoming a direct template like it is in Code One, does that make the SMG the go-to profile for the Oni? The SMG Oni also looks a little more attractive than Shinobu and Saito now (at least with the current costs) because smoke is getting a slight kick in the nuts too. I feel like the SMG ninja will probably also compete for one of the TO camo spots in many people's lists.
     
  2. Morganus

    Morganus Evolved Emotional Intelligence

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    It's a good question. We will see with the possible cost adjustments, if there will be any. SMG was quite great so far for the cost.

    As for the troop niches, you are right, that they are, in many cases, competing for the same slots in JSA. If I remember correctly, there were quite rational voices in this forum that suggested that they should broaden the differences between Oniwabans and Ninjas, and maybe their respective Characters. As nested Skills are blown up in N4, maybe it could've given CB more tools to make small adjustments in certain troops, to differentiate them from their similarly used peers. I am all for making the Oniwaban more distinct and enticing choice, but as it is a delicate balance, it should be done in a way that doesn't make other profiles and troops less so.

    I am hopeful, because shotguns still will be killer weapons in short range, and smoke was such a prominent part of the game so far, that a little bit of tinkering with it was in order. Maybe it won't feel much as a nerf to the smoke, but rather a buff to MSV and other detection systems, and all together closing the gap between factions (for the benefit of those that had no or little access to smoke and/or visual detection gears). Time will tell.

    All in all, I would be very happy if CB's design team would make the Oniwaban more of the TO Camo close combat fighter and killer we already know and love, but the Ninja something different from it. It's tough I know, especially that Yu Jing still has the ninjas as well. But the tactical bow and hacker profiles showed us that there is a path where Ninjas could be made of more of spy shinobi-like elements that they were historically, and less of the same JSA has already in abundance (like CC capabilities). For instance, it would be great, in my humble oppinion, if Ninja profiles would be different because of certain skills and gears they have, and less so because of Combi + some kind of CCW. Ninjas could be helpers of fighters and specialists, and less so fighters themselves, with profiles that each have one of two of such as Deactivator, Deployable Repeater, Free Agent, Scavanger, Sniffer, or anything that could be thought of and would reinforce the idea of a shinobi.
     
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  3. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer
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    If Dodge allows for movement in the active turn and Oniwabans retain Kinematika, that's a very good way to put your Oniwaban in range to template a few units. If Shinobu drops in points she could become a better pick than either the SMG or BSG, because, if the game skews to more elite troops, Shinobu will have a field day taking them out and she packs smoke.
    If the SMG Ninja is cheaper than the Oniwaban, than I think I rather take the Ninja 100% of the time and there are also Ryuken-9. I rather have a BSG, or Lady Death herself than an "overpriced ninja with SMG".
     
  4. dhellfox

    dhellfox The keeper of the Forgotten

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    i may be out of the loop but didn't only the template fire mode get changed, leaving AP slugs untouched?
     
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  5. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer
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    You get to choose between a template, or an F2F on +6 in the 0-8" range, so basically between multiple targets or single targets. Oniwabans BSG were used a lot to take out several cheerleaders at once, forcing a very favourable F2F and clipping incidentally a few more units. That play is now impossible to pull off.
     
  6. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    The BSG Template DTW was the reason I ran him. Saito/Shinobu are better if you want to be able to make your way into CC annd shoot the occasional cheerleader on the way.
    What the Oni had going for him was efficiency vs numbers, so he's in a little bit of a tight spot.
    For someone who has to rely on his gun a fair bit, a BS11 SMG kinda doesn''t cut it.
    Another thing that's gonna be interesring is to see which level of MA he gets for N4. Mono Crits no longer autokill, if he also gets stuck with B1 in CC, he'll be tough to make work even against higher value average targets.
     
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  7. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    I like the idea of both BSG and SMG Oniwaban going into N4. They are likely still going to be a good chunk cheaper in points and SWC than Shinobu and bring superior infiltration + DTWs, both of which Saito is lacking. Being able to drop 2 templates on a passing fireteam or engaging active turn pieces up to 4" from hidden deployment in your opponents table half is nothing to scoff at.

    The SMG loadout is even cheaper and brings suppressive fire with better ammo than Saitos combi rifle. This way, Oniwaban can even be used like a pseudo Ryuken-9 who can be deployed even further towards the opponent.
     
    #7 Knauf, Aug 22, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2020
  8. Catspaw

    Catspaw Well-Known Member

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    My main issue with the BSG Oni right now is that, at least from what we know, it largely feels redundant. He already had nanopulser for DTWs. When comparing SMG to an N4 BSG, the SMG has superior burst, range, and ammo, not to mention being able to suppress with a coordinated order or just hunkering down when you can't re-camo. Having a B2 DTW is pretty nice, but when push comes to shove you'd essentially be paying a premium for an extra +3 at 0-8" against single targets. And let's be honest, with active dodging I'd much rather try to get him into CC at those ranges.
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    We've been playing a tournament today using some select N4 rules that were known about 3 weeks ago - how crits work, how dodge works and how shotguns work. From casual between-games conversations and my own experiences with them I can say without a doubt that I'll never take the BSG Oniwaban when playing JSA ever.

    The new BSG works fairly well on certain units (IMO, Liu Xing and by extension Crushers being examples) but I don't think anything 1-wound and expensive is it.
     
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  10. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Even if it's significantly cheaper? That does not bode well for many units in the game then if it is not much cheaper. I mean, I was very interested to see what results would be like for the HSG Devil Dog...
     
  11. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    I found it hard to take the BSG even in N3, because the low burst often enough where misses for me, loosing too many points. I think the BSG has no place anymore.
    But I look forward to the 15 order max for Oniwabans, because often enough I played on tournaments against loads of camo + chain rifles, flamers and Jammers (yes, Ariadna + Haqq where VERY popular in our meta). Maybe I'll see more juicy targets in the future where 37p superior infiltration is worth the risk. Especially if TAGs get played more often.
     
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  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    If the BSG profiles got cheaper I'd value them differently, but current info we can glean from O-12 is that both BSG and SMG will increase by 1 point. The Oniwaban might get cheaper, but the internal balance between SMG and BSG load outs probably won't change so I'd prioritize the SMG profile every time.
     
  13. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    I can only hope you're wrong cause I was looking forward to using their 40 pt profile to stick to 10 man lists and dropping double Dmg 14 templates on people, it's still gonna be pretty effective against light infantry grouped together, I imagine because it wont be a F2F roll you'll see people choose to shoot at the Oniwaban with at least one dude and dodge the rest. But that means they are breaking the link which means no bonuses either. I feel like the effectiveness in game will be different in what the end results are after the order expenditure but equal overall effect on your game. I might be wrong but bear with me. You, only give LoF to one enemy troop usually anyways, but you're still hitting 2 or more troops. If they break the link to give different AROs those who dodge in the back could be dodging with less bonuses and the guy up front shooting at the Oniwaban is always going to be shooting with no bonuses... definitely shooting at -3 for surprise attack still right? Cause no 6thS. No +3 BS and no +1 B... plus the few situations of dropping the template in two different directions.

    The SG definitely loses its range extending ability which sucks but its dependent on circumstances so... I'm also worried about mono not being as effective. Maybe Onis should get smoke grenades, they end up just slightly less effective than Kitsune as all other characters from units seemingly the game and Saito get his specop back. Effectively making The Ninja class the specialists and Oni the necessary close with smoke for JSA...
     
  14. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    I hope this time around CB can make changes to units on the fly.
     
  15. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    To be perfectly blunt I can't see the Oniwaban surviving the BSG change as long as Shinobu and Saito exist.
    With more points freed up for upgrades and his main utility, the Infiltrating Impact Template, gone, the guy is basically dead in the water without changes.
    Especially if CC becomes cheaper, even more so if Shinobu retains higher level MA than him.

    Combi Rifles are going to be much better to work your way around DTWs now, which are going to be everywhere.
     
  16. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    As this probably needs to be here as well as the other thread, bear in mind the change in CodeOne/N4 Surprise Attack from N3 Surprise Shot - it doesn’t need to be a FtF Roll to apply the -3 MOD.

    So an Oniwaban using template mode from marker state and cover is going to be inflicting a -12 BS MOD to anyone under the template,and a minimum -3 MOD to anyone Dodging, depending on LoF.
     
  17. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Well-Known Member

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    Surprise attack -3,
    Templet weapon outside LoF -3,
    Attack from Inside ZoC out of LoF, -3
    For a total of -9 to dodge if you can set it up correctly.
     
  18. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Either of those cases seem really really good but I think people are upset that it seems like the shotgun will not be effective against fireteams as much as they were before.

    IJW can you assess how effective the new shotgun will be against fireteams given that you know more than the average player about game mechanics and what's in store for us in the coming months. Also can you break down that extra -3 that you got -12 instead of -9 like Mcgreag...
     
  19. The_Evergrey_One

    The_Evergrey_One Well-Known Member

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    Not IJW but I think they talked about different scenarios. IJW got to -12 if the target doesn't dodge and a minimum of -3 if the target does dodge. Mcgreag just showed a scenario when that minimum -3 can be a -9 even if the target dodges.
     
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  20. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Exactly, I was talking about a ‘-12 BS MOD’, and didn’t go into any detail on Dodge MODs.

    Roughly speaking, N4 Shotguns are going to be worse at actively killing Fireteams, but probably better at breaking them by forcing different AROs.

    In N3, there’s no incentive to Dodge against a Shotgun unless you have no LoF the firer. If you can see the firer, then a Burst 2 BS Attack ARO is giving you far better odds in the FtF Roll.

    In N4, firing back is going to result in automatically having to make two Saving Rolls against Damage 14 (or 13 for Light Shotguns). Dodging is generally going to be much easier than in N3, making it a more attractive ARO for the Fireteam, but if they all Dodge you’ve obviously not done anything to the attacker and they just get to shoot you again. So much like facing Direct Template Weapons in N3, but with the benefits of Burst 2, and a point higher Damage than most DTWs.
     
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