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Oddity with Nourkias

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Sabin76, Apr 29, 2020.

  1. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    So, perhaps I'm missing something, but...

    Nourkias has MA4 and CC Attack (+1B) amongst his list of skills. But isn't that just MA5? Why split it out like that? I could understand if it was MA3 to give him the extra burst without so much extra damage, but that's not the case here.
     
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  2. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    Feels like CB wrote N4 and then hacked bits off to make C1. So its probably a clumsy translation of an N4 profile that has to deal with nore advanced rules, like NBW. Like how Sargosh has an LGL, Psicops have Shock Immunity, etc.
     
  3. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm, I don't think they are the same, though. Those other examples are just N4 things that they forgot to take off for C1 (in all likelihood). MA4 + CC Attack (+1B) doesn't feel like they forgot to take something off (both of those things make perfect sense from a C1 rules perspective), it's like they forgot what they updated the MA table to :P.
     
  4. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

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    I think youre missing the point. (+1B) is not equal to MA5, because MA5 works in reactive, and +1B doesn't.

    Reasoning: MA4 in N3 works that way, and unless the basic mechanism of MA has been changed in N4 (and it doesn't seem like it), it should still work like this. As for (+1B) not working in Reactive - there was a confirmation somewhere in the Code One threads.
     
  5. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    But not in the rulebook?
     
  6. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    It is in the rulebook, but it's in the formatting horror that is the left side column of page 60. In the red Important box it says:
    Those MODs modifying the Burst (B) value are only applied in the Active Turn.​
     
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  7. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    What about something explaining the random adjustments? Like Adil's "CC Attack -3" or the "Para CCW (-6)"? To explain these are mods to enemies and not himself?

    Edit - ah, same page it appears. Added for reference.
    Screenshot_20200429-133635_Drive.jpg
     
    #7 paraelix, Apr 29, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
  8. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    That is, indeed, something I didn't think of. I'm not as sure as you are that they aren't changing it, but perhaps that would be the reason... the question then is, why? Why make the conscious decision to make the +1B for Nourkias only work in the Active Turn?

    Does it, though? MA5 is not currently a plus to B, it sets the burst equal to the number of attackers. MA5 in C1 is different enough already that I don't think we can assume the burst is applied in the reactive just because it is in N3.

    MA5 in C1 has a lot more in common with MA4 in N3 than MA5.
     
  9. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

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    Please read my message closer, I did compare MA5 in C1 with MA4 in N3. And MA4 in N3 works in reactive.
     
  10. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    You are, of course, correct. Upon further investigation, I have found the following (which I missed the first time through):

    "IMPORTANT: CC Special Skills can be combined. CC Special Skill MODs can be applied during both the Active Turn and the Reactive Turn."

    I've even had time to think about the balance implications of this. None of the current CC models have MA5, so Nourkias is actually the best of the current line up even without it. Perhaps the idea was that if Nourkias can't take out the other model on his turn, he is not favored (or unfavored) to win in the reactive as well. Looking at it from the other direction... had Nourkias been given MA5, once he got into CC it would have been basically over for the other troop no matter whose turn it was.
     
  11. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

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    Basically yes. I suspect this balance decision (+1 Burst MOD instead of MA5) was made to slot Nourkias into the role of, let's say, an alpha-striker, as opposed to a CC specialist, that can tie down units essentially forever. This also allows the opponent some hope of dislodging Nourkias in CC.

    The other reason I can think of is making him cheaper - I would imagine +1B in Active and Reactive is more expensive, than +1B only in active.
     
  12. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    But isn't the "CC Attack +1B" a CC Special Skill?, it's listed under skills after all.
     
  13. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    First off, your question is juggling words to make word salad. Because you're going from the skill named "CC Attack" being listed somewhere making it "special", so it's the "special CC Attack" skill to saying that it's the "CC Special Skill".

    Second...

    CC Attack(+1B) is the CC Attack Skill listed with a +1B Mod. That functions as specified according to the Modifiers page (page 60).

    The label "CC Special Skill" is defined on page 90. That definition specifies these rules:
    This Skill can only be used when the user is in Silhouette contact with the target. Any MODs the Skill may provide can be combined with other CC Special Skills, and they work equally during the Active Turn and the Reactive Turn, unless the Skill states otherwise.​

    The CC Special Skills Chart Legend, on page 67, where it describes a chart after the introduction text "Some CC Special Skills give a Trooper a series of MODs and advantages that are displayed in Charts with the following elements:" describes the "Burst MOD" entry on skills shown with a modifier chart.

    And then there's an "Important" box which specifies two more rules for CC Special Skills:
    CC Special Skills can be combined.

    CC Special Skill MODs can be applied during both the Active Turn and the Reactive Turn.​

    So, no, the +1B listed as a MOD for a skill doesn't get the special behavior defined for skills with the "CC Special Skill" label.

    P.S. If anyone is having a hard time seeing what the fuss is about, the unit profile is "Umbra Samaritan Nourkias" in the Combined Army section. It took me way longer than it should have to find that looking for the name "Nourkias". :-/
     
  14. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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  15. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    I asked this especially because it caused confusion for two N3 veterans. It might also cause confusion for new players (the target audience for C1).

    I think what you say is correct, but I think it will lead to discussions like this because it is listed under Skills (i.e. in Army Mobile) and has the CC text in it, but it is not a CC (special) Skill.

    I don't like this.
     
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  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't really following this conversation until I realised it was still going, but:

    How does the Important Box on Page 60 that limits Burst MODs being applied to the active not also catch the +1B of MA5?

    I'm assuming that argument is that the "Martial Arts works in the Reactive" is seen as a more specific rule so trumps the general rule that Burst MODs aren't applied in Reactive? (although this isn't, too my knowledge, actually explicitly a thing).

    That's not unreasonable but it's not entirely unambiguous: I think it's possible to read those two rules to say "Positive, Negative and PH Mods from MA5 may be used in Reactive but Burst Mods cannot due to the Important Box on Page 60".

    On my phone, so I've only given the rules a cursory rereading so fully prepared for "you missed this wording that makes it explicit".

    Edit: "they work equally " is the wording I missed initially.
     
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  17. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    As did I.
     
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  18. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

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    I think this can be solved by reading the rulebook a bit more attentively, and then thinking.

    I mean, the skill in question is called CC Attack (+1B), right? So we go to the rulebook and read the description of CC Attack skill (because there's no other skill with this name). And there we see:
    upload_2020-5-6_11-51-24.png
    (red line added by me)

    As you can see, the only tag this skill has is Attack. Now we ask ourselves: "Can a skill without the tag CC Special Skill be a CC Special Skill?"

    Then we go to MA.
    upload_2020-5-6_11-54-16.png
    (red line mine)

    And here's the tag.

    I mean, I get where you're coming from. But IMHO Army Builder's purpose is not being a rules compendium, it's to be a shorthand reminder. If you need more information about what the skill on your trooper does, IMO you really should go and read the wiki/rulebook.

    But that's just my opinion, you're welcome to disagree =)
     
  19. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It'll be interesting to see how this interacts with NBW.
     
  20. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    Thanks @LZ35SRX for the detailed explanation. I think this kind of logical rules navigation is something we are all kind of used to, coming from N3.
    My concern about this is that players new to C1 be confused by this like the original question came up.
    So the question is more, is this kind of detailed profile gimmick (+1 burst only in active turn) is really needed in C1? Would that profile be too strong if it just had MA5? I mean you don't want to get into CC with that model anyway, so you rather shoot him than go into CC.

    I think it always leaves a bad taste if I have to argue on a game table over a rule, even if I'm right.

    Red: "No, you don't in general get burst +1 in ARO except it's explicitly state in the Skill"
    Blue: "But it's stated in the skill, it says under skills "CC Attack +1B"
    Red: "Thats a mod to the CC Attack skill, not a separate Skill", see page 60
    Blue: "But I read somewhere that Burst Mods in CC count even in ARO"
    Red: "Yeah, but only if it has the CC special Skill label in it"
    Blue: "Uh, yeah... I see...
    Red: "Yeah well..."
     
    #20 zapp, May 6, 2020
    Last edited: May 6, 2020
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