1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Objective Points, Forfeits, and Expectations of Sportsmanship

Discussion in 'ITS' started by Hecaton, Feb 19, 2019.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,156
    Likes Received:
    3,994
    @HellLois etc

    At a tournament some time last year, I was playing an opponent who got a call from his daughter, who was fresh at college, dealing with some issue or other, I don't know what, but he told me that there was a good chance he was going to have to leave. He spent about 15 minutes on the phone, resolved the issue, and then we completed the match (well, 2/3 turns of it).

    What would have happened, though, if he had had to bow out? How should scoring be handled in situations like that? Should it be treated like a bye - minor win with zero objective points scored? If so, that begs the larger question of the scoring/tiebreaker system for ITS. And if it's impossible for a player to score a win from the current game state of a game, are they considered obligated to continue to play or can they just forfeit, considering a forfeit will certainly result in a worse outcome for their opponent than even a normal minor victory? I've heard people say that it's part of the social contract of Infinity tournaments to continue playing out games in this fashion, but do we want that to be the case? What do we do when a player wants to concede gracefully or when, as in my example above, real life intervenes and someone is forced to step away from the table?
     
    Phlyk, xagroth and theradrussian like this.
  2. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    1,925
    I feel this is something that individual TO's and communities need to decide how to handle. The circumstances and relevance to players is highly personal and unique, so the solutions will be unique.

    There is guidance in ITS how you might treat a forfeited game - treat it like a bye. Alternatives include hypothetically finishing the game with the TO to determine a reasonably likely score.

    I don't think this is something CB need to come down from up high to rule on.
     
    RogueJello and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,156
    Likes Received:
    3,994
    @Alphz Leaving it up to individual TOs allows far too much room for bias and favoritism to slip in. I think it's something that should be formally codified, one way or the other.

    And there isn't really guidance - a bye is a bye, a forfeit is a forfeit.
     
    Phlyk, theradrussian and RogueJello like this.
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,608
    Likes Received:
    6,910
    One thing that has come up in our tournaments is; how do you handle scoring if game ends due to time constraints during the first player's turn?
     
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,156
    Likes Received:
    3,994
    Some direction that way would be nice. When I run tournaments, I always insist that complete rounds be played, though I wish games wouldn't stop at 2 rounds. Infinity can be complicated, though. And there's the issue of when it's decided that only 2 rounds will be played; if only the player going second has that information for their second turn that's a sizable advantage.

    I guess that's part of my frustration with the Retreat! mechanic as implemented in ITS, it allows for uneven turns.
     
  6. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    1,925
    There isn't going to be one right answer to the question.

    Maybe come up with a suggestion, see how broadly applicable it can be and propose that, as it would be pretty good.

    I just don't really believe you can solve personality politics with rules. At some point, you just have to deal with things as adults.
     
    chromedog likes this.
  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,156
    Likes Received:
    3,994
    @Alphz unfortunately I don't know if there's a good one as long as you keep the major/minor victory dichotomy and use objective points as a tiebreaker.
     
  8. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    444
    Likes Received:
    434
    I don't think there's a good answer to the question, but if CB decides on something, it's at least uniformly unpleasant in the same manner everywhere. It also makes the TO's job a little easier, since they can just point to the rules.
     
  9. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    1,925
    See I don't really believe this. If it's unpleasant, some people might try do something different with good intents (or bad) and the people who disagree will still disagree.

    All it changes is it gives people justification to lay down ultimatums.

    If these chasms exist pre-bad ruling, they only get worse post bad ruling.
     
  10. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2018
    Messages:
    330
    Likes Received:
    460
    FWiW, a minor win with 0 OP is also a perfect way to basically guarantee your opponent wont end in the top 3 in 3 round tournaments (aka: the standard format). Even in 5 rounders, a minor win like that may as well be a loss if you intend to go in and give it your all.

    This is something I think should be addressed. I also think games that end before 3 full turns should have the starting player penalised as this oftentimes means they brought a list they can't play, or were stonewalling (and CHA players sadly seem to fit one of these two...then again I've only met 2 of them)
     
    xagroth and Hecaton like this.
  11. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2018
    Messages:
    330
    Likes Received:
    460
    Then it should be revisited if reasonable proposals and critiques of it arise. It's kind of how rules/laws/what have you...work?
     
    Hecaton likes this.
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,156
    Likes Received:
    3,994
    Isn't that what you want, though? It avoids the feeling of "I got screwed by the TO" as its instead based on an objective standard.
     
    xagroth likes this.
  13. Daniel Darko

    Daniel Darko Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    175
    I wonder if there are clauses in official rules for sports.

    What if at golf, tennis, soccer or football the player / one team just leaves. In the middle of a game. A game played in some league.
    Are there rules and what do they say?
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,156
    Likes Received:
    3,994
    There certainly are. It's one of the reasons it's so weird that Infinity doesn't have them.
     
  15. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,739
    Likes Received:
    1,631
    Typically, it's at the discretion of the organization putting on the tournament or league, and ofttimes depends on why the match ended. Was it abandoned due to weather? Is it in the knock out stages or the round robin? Is it the first leg or the second leg? Is there time for a replay? Was it abandoned owing to fan disruption? And Comnebol will have it's own set of criteria for, say, the Libertadores, while UEFA will have another for the Champions' or Europa League, with the FA having one for the FA Cup, the Premiership one for the Premier League, etc. So, at the end, typically established ahead of time just in case, but at the discretion of the TO.
     
    theradrussian likes this.
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,156
    Likes Received:
    3,994
    I think "at the discretion of the TO" is kind of misleading. There are rules and regulations on this in basically every professional sport.
     
  17. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    1,925
    Yes, Normally determined by the tournament organisers... They just happen to be professional bodies in themselves, but as can be seen from football, hardly free of corruption or politics.

    The base rules for football don't have rules for an abandoned game.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  18. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,739
    Likes Received:
    1,631
    No, it’s actually spot on. As @Alphz notes, the Laws of the Game have no proviso for an abandoned match, it’s set be each governing body.
     
    #18 A Mão Esquerda, Feb 23, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
    Dragonstriker likes this.
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,156
    Likes Received:
    3,994
    The issue is that in, say, the NFL, the governing body is also the same organization that sets up the playoffs - and if the rules are perceived to favor one party or another, lawsuits might happen. In Infinity (or MtG, a better example) there are tournaments run by people who don't make the rules, which is why it's important for CB to make rules about tournament structure.
     
    meikyoushisui likes this.
  20. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    1,008
    Golf's rules are very, very good, and well worth a read for anyone seriously interested in game rules and managing disputes. The game's had 500 years to work it all out, and pretty much anything that might come up in a game these days is covered very clearly. Golf clubs do have a certain small amount of discretion to change this in their Local Rules, but not much.

    So the rules always apply to every competitive round you play, and since almost everyone will be playing some sort of a competitive game every time they pick up a club, there is an expectation of the rules being applied at every stroke. Players almost never ask their opponent to ignore a situation - indeed the first rule of golf is that players may not do so!

    For example, players are not usually allowed to move a ball from where it lies ('playing the lie') except under penalty, but clubs in temperate climates commonly provide an exemption under their Winter Rules. This will usually read something like this:
    ie. you can pick your ball out of a puddle, clean off the dirt and, if the puddle's not too big, maybe even move it back to the edge of the water.

    Hence, I continually write in these forums that Infinity players should strive to explain their game, house or tournament rule or style as "The rules say A, B, C and not D, but we're playing B, C, D and not A". Everyone knows what they're doing; no-one need bully others into playing their style; and 'sportsmanship' becomes about how you play - your generous personality, not whether you let them break a rule!