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Obiron tactik - Desire

Discussion in 'Legendary Bahadurs' started by krotos, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. krotos

    krotos Well-Known Member
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    Can I play this tactic during attack, when we play tactics before the Roll?
    I don't see prohibition to do it, but on the IEC19 judge didn't allow me to play it in such way. So @-V- what can you say about this situation?
     
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  2. Roadrunner7431

    Roadrunner7431 Well-Known Member
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    I support you @krotos in this strategy but it would be good to get an official ruling from @-V- who has been quiet lately in this forum.
     
  3. Damiel

    Damiel Domaru sexytorizado :3
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    No. During the resolution of an Action, you can't play Tactics that don't refer (in its timing) to any of the phases of the Action itself (e.g. the dice Tactics mention specifically "before a roll", thus you can use them during the roll phase of an attack).

    Hope this helps

    :3
     
  4. treiral

    treiral Midnight poster

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    Do you have a source to sustain that claim? If a tactic says "during your activation", you should be able to play that tactic whether you are already performing an action or not.
    Then again, they have ruled in the past that "during the activation" doesn't include the start and the end of the activation phase, so I can totally see that being another case of counterintuitive rules.
     
  5. der_narr

    der_narr Member

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    During a Simple Roll or a Face to Face Roll you can (only) play Tactics to modify the Roll (p. 7+13 reference guide v1.3) or Tactics with a specific timing (e.g. No!).
     
  6. krotos

    krotos Well-Known Member
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    Guys, how I can insert pictures from phone to my posts? Just want to show rules that allow to play Desire in any moment.
     
  7. treiral

    treiral Midnight poster

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    You can't just add words to a sentence and claim it true. For all we know, the tactics step might just be a reminder that you should play tactics that modify a roll before it is rolled.
    Does the browser you are using include an option for "Desktop Mode"? I haven't tested it here but "Phone mode" might hide certain icons to avoid clutter. The icon to add images is next to the Smilies icon.
     
  8. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    @Damiel and @der_narr could you please provide a rules reference for this, without adding any extra text to the rule?
     
  9. der_narr

    der_narr Member

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    @ijw: sure

    "1. Tactics: Before any actual rolling takes place, both players have an opportunity to play Tactics to modify the Roll. [...]"
    (entry Face to Face Roll and entry Simple Roll, p.7+13)

    "Tactics have a timing text that specifies when to play them." (entry Tactics,p.15, 6th bullet point)

    If you read the first quote rule as written (RAW) it isn't possible to play Tactics which don't modify the Roll. The exception to this would be the second quote.
    I'm aware, one could argue that "play Tactics to modify the Roll" might just be a reminder for the players or even more that the "standard" timing "During the Actions Step of XY's Activation" is specific enough to be played during a simple/ f2f Roll, but I have my concerns:

    1.Afaik there is no single example in the official material backing this situation (if you know one please show it to me)

    2. I can imagine only a few situations where this could really make a diffrence- and not simply playing the Tactic before or after a simple/ ftf Roll takes place.

    3. It will complicating the rules of this wonderful game even more. Please don't open this Pandora's box. For example: In my opinion cards like "Amputate","Whirlwind" or "Wiillmaa!!!" override the reference guide (refering to entry solving rules contradictions, point 3, p.1) and can be played (in combination with other Tactics) in the middle of an action/attack.

    But yeah, I don't claim my interpretations of the rules to be true or right. Oh, and sorry for my english. Reading is definitely easier than writing :blush:

    greetings

    der_narr
     
  10. treiral

    treiral Midnight poster

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    I don't know what you mean here exactly. If we had official material one way or the other we wouldn't be having this thread. But if you mean official material where they are misquoting what otherwise would be reminders, until the last rules update we had that smoke and :S:dazzle actually denied doing :4: back to the attacker, it made that Eclypse and Kozmo could safely attack without the enemies striking back by using their switches to hide themselves before the resolution. It was quite broken.
    That's true. It's a fringe scenario that could make possible things like using displacement effects to avoid adjacency (I'm thinking Sr. Massacre swerving away from Miyamoto), or playing a :,: card and then using Desire to play it twice.
    I agree. An official ruling making that cards with the "during the action step of your activation" timing to be played only at any time one could use an Action would simplify things.
    I wouldn't trust restricting the usage of tactics during the Tactics step because one could argue that you could play the card during the Roll step, or the Switches step. It's better to cut the problem at the root and avoid using tactics during actions unless the timing specifically declares it. I'd say the Tactics step is confusing and should be gone, why else cards like Focus have a timing of "Before a roll" instead of "During the Tactics step of an action"? Nothing of value would be lost if the step disappeared.
    If someone were to try that one on me, I'd say "you could play the card and follow its instructions, but the moment you'll try to perform the action of the card, the action would fizzle because you have yet to finish the current action".

    Sorry about the wall of text!
     
  11. krotos

    krotos Well-Known Member
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    Hi guys, so.

    1)
    SOLVING
    RULES CONTRADICTIONS
    Whenever two or more rules appear contradictory, use this list
    —ordered from higher to lower priority— to determine which
    one takes precedence:
    1. If a rule says something cannot happen, that restriction
    always takes precedence.
    2. Scenario rules override both this guide’s rules and card
    Effects.
    3. Tactics Effects override both this guide’s rules and
    Character cards. If two Tactics clash, the Underdog decides
    which one takes precedence.

    4. Character cards take precedence over this guide’s rules.
    5. Rules described in this guide take precedence over rules
    described in the “How to Play” section.

    2) I don't see there fourth step - Attack step. SO Desire can by played anytime during Actions step.
    [​IMG]

    3) In official example (Important! in p.2 Declaration) opponent plays tactic during your action and this Tactic doesn't affect Roll.
    [​IMG]

    As I see from official rules I can play any Tactic anytime when I want and if tactic allows it.
    Thank you. I'm hope that @-V- confirm my thoughts or CB will rewrite all texts that I mentioned above.
     
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  12. treiral

    treiral Midnight poster

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    That Important! seems pretty definitive, indeed. Nice find.
     
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  13. krotos

    krotos Well-Known Member
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    @-V- , please give us answer:)
     
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  14. -V-

    -V- A! Team member
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    Yes, you can. Desire can be played at any time during the Actions Step of one of your Character's Activations, and so includes the time before rolling. So you can play Desire to rescue i.e. an "Aim" and then play it as the Effects of Desire state: "as if it was in your hand".

    I must apologyze. There two key facts: My current job in Defiance and the lack of mention alerts from these forums. I'll try to get connected more often.

    :wink:
     
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  15. Plebian

    Plebian Well-Known Member

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    Thanks -V-.

    Thats a really cool interaction.
     
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  16. krotos

    krotos Well-Known Member
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    thank you! it was very important for me
     
  17. JAGS

    JAGS New Member

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    even when there's no rule about, I always thought you couldn't use "during one of your caracter's activation" while resolving an action, but between actions.

    Then while resolving Miyamoto's Ken No Sen, if I get his attack switch, I can use Gata's Swerve Tactic (031) to get closer to another enemy before resolving the action so when I resolve the action I could make the free attack immediately?

    Or could I use Parvati's Nanoid Cloud (036) before resolving Switches Step if I realice that otherwise my character wouldn't survive the attack?
     
  18. krotos

    krotos Well-Known Member
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    I think that you can't use Ken No Sen in this way because this is immediate action. So there is no step where you can put tactic, but you can play Nanoid cloud before successes transforms to wounds I think.
    @-V-
     
  19. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    As you say, there is no rule saying this.

    Is it "during one of your character's activations"? Yes.
     
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