For start I'm a returning player to Infinity, I've played the game mostly during 2e and my armies of choice were Ariadna (French/Vanilla) and Haqqislam (all of them). Before 3e came out I had plans to start either JSA or Greek Aleph. But in the end I took a long break from Infinity instead. Now the new JSA starter pack managed to get my attention back to Infinity, and it settled my choice between JSA and the Greeks. I always had a love for the O-yori model, and now we even have two! Now I know that we are in a transition period of list building currently since our split off Yu-ying. But all the lists I see so far don't seem to use an O-yori, in 2e my JSA opponents tended to field one in every list! So was wondering if the O-yori is still viable these days, or simply our other choices are more effective than what an O-yori brings to the table? Would a double O-yori list be a thing, or simply crazy an ineffective to make it work? Looking for your thoughts on this one, before I commit to buying two O-yori xD
O-Yoroi is better than ever now that it has Martial Arts, Fatality and a useful pilot. I'm not sure about running two, there is a guide on running multiple TAGs in the PanO forum (I think the one titles "Massed Armor"). But I have no idea how good it would be in JSA. It is a pretty good TAG and access to a LI link is pretty useful. One is at least good, and I'd bet you could win with 2. Just might not be ideal.
The O-yoroi is a useful model to have in your collection for a number of reasons. Some missions this ITS season reward extra OBJ points for taking a TAG. Mainly Deadly Dance and Show of Force. A TAG is a commitment in any list/faction - they are a huge points sink. Even with the relatively low price tag of 86 points on the O-Yoroi, you are still almost obligated to spend more points taking pieces that support your TAG. IMHO the O-Yoroi is one of the better TAGs, with a decent weapon and standard stats he is pretty cheap - plus you get stealth and crazy Koalas which are huge. He can safely walk away from a repeater or a hacker on the active turn if he finds himself a little too close, and the Koalas deter most things from getting within template and hacking range. I would almost always include him if I were to do a Limited Insertion list. Here's a sample list of something I would run: Japanese Secessionist Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 1 O-YOROI AP HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas / EXP CCW. (2 | 86) DOMARU Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 26) KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21) KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17) KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14) YURIKO ODA Combi Rifle, Panzerfaust, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 24) HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 25) NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29) RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24) KUROSHI RIDER Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Breaker Pistol, AP + Shock CCW. (0 | 33) 6 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army You have a solid link team for ARO duty, and once the Missile launcher goes down (because it will) you can counter attack with the Domaru/Yuriko. You have Kuroshi who has two extra orders for herself, so even if you end up dumping everything in the O-Yoroi, she still has some actions. The ninja can eliminate any hacking threats and the Ryuken can take out any overwatch pieces and can force your opponent into a spot of the board that is advantageous for you. This list also has a nice spread of specialists for any button pushy missions aswell. That being said, I would never take 2.
Good to know that the O-yori is still a good TAG and that there is merrit to having it around. My problem with Infinity was always how much toys we can choose from and trying to fit it all in one list. I knew the suggestion of two O-yori was far fetched, managing orders for both would be quite hard, if you also need to achieve objectives than just sheer killing. Talking about orders, is an O-yori lieutenant not a possible solution? Or other of our pieces are better suited at being lieutenants?
I'm sure you could play 2 O-Yoroi and win a game, or at least be satisfied with your performance. Not my personal play style though, haha. The O-yoroi LT. is still a decent option - I feel as though the 1 SWC tax hurts a lot more now since our remotes went up in SWC and I'm always usually taking one of them. Having an extra order for the TAG is very nice, although - He is a big target and chances are he WILL go down at some point. I know we have cheap CoC, but it's something to consider.
Due to the cheap CoC option, I think it's better of making your Lt something extremely killy that can be out there and aggressive. I sometimes feel like if you take a CoC and never make use of it, then it's just a wasted slot, even though it's still a nice reassurance to have him around just in case. But yeah the SWC tax on the Lt option is quite hefty in hindsight.
Keep in mind CoC is still a specialist - he doesn't have to sit in your deployment zone doing nothing. I'll often run for a turn 3 button push or HVT sync with him. I prefer to have a different aggressive LT because it tends to take some heat off of the O-Yoroi.
At this point I just feel like there's no way around paying SWC for a lieutenant sometimes. It hurts because I feel like JSA runs SWC-high now compared to most other factions, but the trade is that you can spend 11 orders on your O-Yoroi or Oniwaban on turn 1, and that feels pretty good most of the time. Four of our seven lieutenants cost SWC -- and I'd rather take 3.5 more orders than bring Kuro bike, or 3 more orders than bring Neko a lot of the time.
JSA gets 0 SWC CoC, so there is that to offset 1SWC Lts. Shinobu also only nets you an extra 0.5 over her other Profile. Double Oyoroi seems a bit of a waste. One of JSA's biggest strengths is a plethora of (secondary) assault pieces in the 20 points bracket, Yojimbo, Ryouken ODD, Aragoto Spitfire & Rui Shi, on top of their excellent TO solo strikers and Keisotsu with "never ending" 5 man Bonus. You can take something like this list and try to make room for another Oyoroi. Oyoyoy ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 O-YOROI Lieutenant AP HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas / EXP CCW. (3 | 86) KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21) KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14) KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 20) GROUP 2 5 2 1 SAITO TOGAN (Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW, Knife. (0 | 40) YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21) WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army Almost certainly you'll find yourself not wanting to give up 3 versatile troops as well as a lot of Orders just to double down that already works well in a quantity of 1.
If I'm going to run an O-Yoroi, I like to throw down with a Samurai 7 theme list: Japanese Secessionist Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 9 1 4 OYAMA Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Breaker Pistol, AP CCW, EXP CCW. (0 | 28) DOMARU Spitfire / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (2 | 39) TANKŌ Blitzen, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23) TANKŌ Blitzen, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23) TANKŌ Missile Launcher / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32) O-YOROI AP HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas / EXP CCW. (2 | 86) YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21) KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17) TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army Yes, that's a DoTanko Core team, an O-Yoroi, AND Yojimbo (or Musashi, if you drop the helperbot). DoTanko use order efficiency, usually with the Spitfire as the Team Leader. Even if they spend 3 orders, there's still 2 more you can give to your O-Yoroi. I'm not sure why, but locally the O-Yoroi draws a lot more fire than the DoTankos do, and that's fire that should really be going to kill the HI. Hacker casts Fairy Dust, Doc and Engineer either pray or go on Suppression Fire to protect the DZ. I usually assign the Helperbot to the Engineer, so it can run up and fix Glue and EM (lots of Ariadnans and Nomads in my meta).
That tends to happen with TAGs. Even the lowly Gecko gets multiple times the attention it deserves. Then everyone has left their DZ to get it and have their backs exposed...
So another follow up question when using an O-yori list, can be actual quite the general question. But how many specialists should you always fit into a list? Would an engineer and a hacker be kind of mandatory to offer extra protection for the TAG? Seeing how TAGs do attract extra attention like some sort of Distraction Carnifex, how long can I keep it reastically alive before my pilot would need to eject? Also the pilot is an FO, does that mean that I could eject in turn 3 and start pushing buttons on my own accord?
The pilot can eject near the button no problem with that. The good part is that if has some cover, you are using the pilot profile, so it's much smaller. Getting back in is the same, you are using the TAG profile immediately. In the list below you have plenty of options once the TAG gets hacked or killed. O-Yoroi Lt + Kempei CoC Some backup plan. O-Yoroy + Backup ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 1 O-YOROI Lieutenant AP HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas / EXP CCW. (3 | 86) DOMARU (Fireteam: Haris) Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0.5 | 27) KARAKURI Mk12, Chain Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 40) KARAKURI Mk12, Chain Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 40) RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 20) KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21) ARAGOTO (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25) TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) 5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army If you don't want the KHD Aragoto (too many specialists is not good in certain missions), change it to Spitfire and change the FO Keisotsu to regular one. Makes the army 6 SWC/300 pts. Another change I'd say works well is changind the Aragoto to the HMG TR remote.
An O-Yoroi is one of the most independent TAGs with Koalas and CC. It shouldn't require much more the support. I would suggest an Engineer for E/M, ADH and Isolation. It also gives you a specialist, and if you have any REM you want one of those anyways. With Koalas they'll need to have those cleared before they can hack you, so you have a layer of protection, and stealth gives you the possibility of safely leaving repeaters. If you play and hacking becomes a problem there are a two main hackers you'd want. The EVO can give you better defense on the TAG against hacking with one of its unique programs. However a Killer Hacking Device gives you the ability to hunt down hackers, as well as punish any enemy repeaters set up nearby to tie up your TAG. You need to spend an order to dismount the pilot at the beginning of your movement. By declaring Move, a trooper may Mount or Dismount a Motorcycle, TAG, Vehicle,etc. at the start of his Movement at no cost, the new troop profile will be applied during the whole sequence of the Order. You use an order and declare Move. If you dismount the Pilot is placed on the table starting base to base with the now inactive TAG model. The TAG does NOT generate an ARO, the Pilot does. The Pilot uses her MOV value. Basically you dismount and are the Pilot for the entire order. In reverse you must start B2B with the inactive TAG. You declare a Move order and choose to mount. The Pilot does not generate an ARO while the TAG does. You use the TAG's MOV value. The TAG does not need to be Unconscious for the Pilot to dismount. However it can be. An Unconscious TAG does not generate an Order or act as Lieutenant, but the Pilot can still dismount. To take an objective you want to get the TAG close enough that the Pilot can dismount touching the objective and TAG at the same time. First order you Dismount and take the objective. Second order you activate the objective if you failed the first time, then either way Mount again. It works the same way as Bikes, but you can't dismount while unconscious. And you don't need to dismount for since the specialist skill is on both the mounted and dismounted profiles.
The only issue I have with TAGs is that the pilot dies if the TAG is destroyed after they dismount. Which is silly and backward and makes me sad. Because I don't want to get a gorgeous mecha and pilot and have something that nonsensical happen.
That is silly, I thought the whole idea behind a pilot ejection system is to create an extra hurdle for your enemies at scoring points, having to kill the TAG and the pilot after that! Was this always the case back in 2ed too? or just a weird change in 3ed?
How receptive is CB to FAQs or rules changes these days? :o Cause the only purpose of the pilot right now is to use the TAG as an extra step to grab an objective, which will cost you a minimum of 2 orders if done right!
If the TAG has a Pilot (not Operator) the TAG counts as killed at the end of the game even if the Pilot is still active. That's not what it's for. TAGs with Operators have some sort of an ejection system and can't go unconscious. That is extremely rare. The TAG would need to go Unconscious before your turn 3, then the Pilot would need to be in a situation where it wants to come out, then it would need to be easier to kill the TAG body than the Pilot. I've never seen it happen and I use the Manned TAG with the best Pilot in over half my games.
