Super simple, not game breaking. Active Turn: Player chooses at the beginning of the Order for either the Team Leader to get full Burst or the Fireteam shoots like the current Coordinated Order rule without using command tokens Reactive Turn: Members can be put into the Supression Fire State without breaking out of the team. No bonuses but no fuss either.
enjoy akrylat Bounty Hunter spam being even more annoying and most of sectorials without cheap linkable 24+ guns being unplayable
I think you're both exaggerating this to a significant degree. Reloading said two-shot weapons makes this unfeasible as a sustained tactic and I rarely see people spend command tokens to do this sort of thing more than once or twice per game, and the only time I've seen this preferred over retaining fireteam bonuses is when Joan spends her "free" order on it
Fire teams are already strong enough in active turn without getting essentially unlimited free coordinated orders for shooting a turn and most likely 3-4 unopposed shots per order as well. Not having to spend command tokens either makes this idea sickening. In reactive turn fireteams are already decently strong with B2 and the +3BS MOD. Having models with weapons that cannot go into suppressive fire would just cause rules conflicts which makes this a bad idea.
Keep in mind that Wuji is suggesting that Fireteams do not get any other benefit than what is essentially Coordinated Orders - and if a member of a Coordinated Order doesn't have a Suppression Fire weapon available when that skill is declared they'll just Idle
No one ever brings those up as a problem so I didnt think those needed changing. Coherency and relinking makes sense imo.
Well burst 5-6 with BS+3 Sixth Sense is pretty OP depending on the unit/sectorial. This would be 2-4 unopposed rolls as you say, but theres no burst or BS bonus. Which means powerful weapons like an HMG lose their edge for that order and the range of BS is always gonna 10-14 often firing against high ARM and mimetism in cover. Each individual shooting any strong weapon is still B1. Alot of these unopposed rolls are going to miss. I mean how often do you use a coordinated order with your HMG HI at full burst vs a coordinated order? You have your edge cases but most of the time that full burst to keep the HI on the table is the choice so you dont potentially lose him.
in that solution HI HMGs would be phased out in favor of this or this running around forcing dodges or feeding enemies with 5 templates at once both sound like clown cars IMO also whoops varangians+UKR still roll around while most armies retire because fireteams become liabilities instead of easy active/reactive turn solutions
If it was FOR FREE i would use it any other order. Free chance to place unopposed hits on the target? EVERY FRIGGING TIME... BTW, the game went down the road of REMOVING unopposed rolls...
As if ARO pieces were not already bad enough right now. This would completely invalidate every ARO pieces from the game.
An HMG or Spitfire as the Spearhead is still B2. Why would stop bringing one just because you dont always use it. People still bring a ML even if they plan to leave it in the DZ when they move the rest of the team forward, ornthey just bring it forward to keep the team bonuses despite putting it in their bad ranges. So, HMGs would still have a place cause choosing to win a firefight and keep all your troops on the table because the HMG can win firefights often is still gonna be the choice more often. You have to remember the lower your burst the higher the chance the enemy ARO will take you out. If we see piece for piece trades from a fireteam and strong ARO pieces, the strength of that fireteam dwindles fast. Which means what players will really have is just more time considering whether they want to go F2F with a full B4 weapon or risk losing guys piece for piece. Consider it more like G:Sync unit where one has a Spitfire and the other a chain rifle. If you shoot at the spitfire you're likely to lose but if you ARO to the chain rifle you stand much better chance and decreasing the potency of the little team. Likewise some team members you know you'll lose against but others you stand a better chance. For your first example of bounty hunters. Let's face them up against the BlackJack Sniper, SwissMiss or Yan Huo Neurocinetics at extreme ranges. Now all the sudden the whole team but the Brawler is at a disadvantage. Sure its unopposed rolls but with no bonuses they are likely to miss meaning any of those ARO pieces gets to choose with more ease what they want to ARO to. Cheaper Suppressing units will still be able to take out a Coordinated order. The other list is 76 points taking up the core link slot with no long range. They still have to figure out away to get across the board intact. Remember, in infinity everything has diminishing returns, more so now with tac window. It's not game breaking, but it is different.
See my response to fatherboxx, it sums up things nicely. And given that all shotguns can be unopposed now and coordinated orders are still the same. It seems more like things are just different.
Read my response to father box. I'd actually consider taking a Ninja Sniper with these changes. Not everyone has MSV, or range. It doesnt make sense that a bare bones BS12 MSR LI would be a key ARO piece but it does make sense that it would be a good team member firing at the enemy at the same time. Where as something like a BlackJack T2SR at extreme range could really camp knowing that it's out of range of most shooter and thus imposing at least a -6 cause of range and cover. Which means most disposable threats are shooting on 6s or less. Untill they can manage to get more forward. Moving forward risks receiving AROs out of cover. And with no more 6th sense active turn is more precarious for a team that lacks variety for the sake of trying to be a DeathStar. Remember, my suggestion is player must choose at the beginning of every order whether the leader has burst or the team does. A leader who lowers their burst stands a chance of being taken out and thus decreasing the power of the team and causing the player to spend a command token earlier on in the game than the current ruling. It looks like the game has all the necessary things required to balance the suggestion. Camo, High Stats, Suppression Fire and Skills will be what makes a units better suited for ARO duty and not just having a weapon traditionally considered an ARO weapon. Those troops that have low burst weaponry that relied on Bonuses in ARO to be useful will be moved to active turn duty instead regardless of having bonuses or not. Keisotsu might actually get a revival...
Ninja Sniper would be worst with these changes imo. Can't shot off-member targets unopposed anymore, they're going to oppose you and the other 3 will shoot you unopposed. A 37 point ARO in a world with coordinated orders for free is pretty bad. The power of Mim-6, Hidden Deployed troopers is stacking overwhelming odds versus a trooper and winning because it's very unlikely that they beat you in FtF. Coordinated orders are one of the better ways to kill them because you're suddenly not fighting versus their odds, you just need to hit them with one of your shots.
List 1: you're saying this is not the case already? The funny thing is that what you're describing is also the vanilla solution to the exact same Fireteam. If you don't kill the linked sniper in 2 command tokens or orders, it's not going to be worth spending 3 orders reloading them to have another go. List 2: what you're suggesting takes up a LOT of real estate. Like silly amount of real estate and an absolutely ridiculous amount of juggling with templates 'cause they aren't allowed to touch each others' templates. Not to mention that they'll all take huge risks if the enemy has a DTW of their own, which in this edition good luck finding an enemy who doesn't. It does highlight something that's a real issue, though: smoke and device placements which become so much more effective. P.s. oh, and the Jags would probably be better off mixing direct mode and template mode to prevent the target from turning around and lowering the amount of ridiculous juggling. -- Meanwhile, @Diphoration with some actual clear criticism that's not based on "omg the sky is falling something's changing". Not that I think a Ninja sniper is ever all that great ARO option. I do think that this situation could be mitigated somewhat by retaining the rule that forces team members to mimic the target selection and skill declaration of the leader, so you'd still be able to snipe stragglers. -- It is a primary mitigating factor of Fireteams. If you're still forcing them to remain in a tight spot they become primary candidates for removal by templates. Since you suggest using Coordinated mechanics, this also drastically increases the value of template weapons as a response since those will FTF all the Fireteam. As an example, would the Brawler sniper in Fatherboxx' first list want to try their luck against a Ryuken-9 under current rules? Sure, the BHs can just hide outside the HRL's blast radius. Would they want to face the Ryuken-9 under your suggested rules? Probably no because usually terrain doesn't allow you to get all the fireteam into LOF of the Ryuken without taking a pie plate to everyone's face. A few years ago, I suggested that simply allow linkable troopers to make Coordinated Orders without spending CTs instead of the complicated Fireteam rules and it was duly pointed out to me how strong certain combinations were. That was before Kamau snipers aided by 40 points worth of teenagers armed with unlimited cell phone data and pre-loaded Candy Crush premium account, btw. I think your suggestion deserves consideration simply because Fireteams have gotten really ridiculous
So above I quoted a decent disposable weapons link led by the Brawler MSR. In my suggested version of link teams the Ninja Sniper would be deployed in extreme range bands as players prefer to do with snipers. And now the only only team member that can even threaten the ninja is the brawlers cause everyone else is hitting on 0s. Plus the ninja is hidden. So when the active player decides they want to move that team, they have to decide who they want as the leader and whether they want the leader to have burst or the team to have burst at the beginning of the order. Out in the open they are much easier to kill cause no cover. Moreover, all but the MSR will be -9 for mimetism and cover after they get out extreme range bands. Each one will be rolling a single die on 3s. In this scenario since the whole team firing would make the Brawler roll one die even as the leader, Forza would be the ideal member to lead. Because he'd roll 2 dice. Here's all the problems with this. 3 akrylates on 6s, 1 MSR on 12, and 2 VR on 4 does does not make for a lot of hits. Depending on timing, the Hidden deployed Ninja could take out the MSR in the second of an order granting an ARO or Take out Forza because he's juicy. Not to mention the Ninjas odds of taking out the leader are pretty good. This sets the active player back a command token at the very least.
