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Nomad TAGs and Courage/Religious

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by karush, Nov 30, 2021.

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  1. karush

    karush Member

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    If you go through all of the TAGs in infinity only 5 do not have Courage or Religious. Of those five, 4 are Nomad TAGs and the last is the Gorgos (a discontinued TAG in a faction so far on the back burner it's starter box was discontinued along with half the line). This seems odd to me. I personally think it is because Nomads were used as a baseline during Beta testing, after finishing the nomads they came up with the idea that maybe walking tanks shouldn't flee from combi rifle fire ~35% of the time and put that in the other factions, and then due to deadlines/a global pandemic/rabid moose attacks in the office(surprisingly common in Spain) they just did not get back around to the Nomad TAGs to bring them in line with the new normal.

    But why do I think they made a concerted effort to make TAGs courageous or at least religious? Well, because they did. TAGs such as the Guijia and Maghariba that did not have it in N3 gained it in this edition. Heck the Maghariba was even an example of failing a courage test in the N3 rule book. Additionally with the un-nesting of rules they made sure EVERY remote presence TAG had courage or religious. Basically for a pair of rules that were not universal before, they made sure it was on EVERYTHING except the TAGs that we know were finished first.

    So I propose giving the Nomad TAGs Courage or Religious. Likely give the Iguana and the Gecko Courage, the Lizard Religious or Courage, and the Salamandra Courage. The Salamandra could alternatively have religious but we already know the Black Hand funds the Anaconda Squadron and those have courage so I am leaning that way.

    I have made this argument before and heard feedback so I am going to rattle off a few answers to frequently used arguments.

    1. Nomad are not meant to have courage because the nomads aren't a trained army.
    A: Yes, the nomads are. Every ship has units that have courage, any of the cats, the HI, and several others of Corregidor, Bakkunin though it uses more irregular troops also have the morlocks and Task Masters which answer to Jurisdictional Command and have courage, and Tunguska has the Grenzers, Zondnautica, and Kriza who also answer to jurisdictional command. Nomads know how to train for courage and they have thoroughly trained elements in their forces.

    Furthermore Courage easily represents keeping a cool head under pressure, which can come from training or up bringing. Where do the nomads live? The single most dangerous environment known to man, space. We know in fluff that living in space is dangerous. Think more The Expanse rather than Star Trek. Radiation leaks, explosive decompression, and normal explosions are a fact of life for nomads. They have to keep calm in the face of difficult and lethal problems. If anything Nomads should have MORE rather than less courage than other factions, as death was always a broken radiation shield, faulty valve, or botched repair job away.

    2. Okay but Nomad TAGs specifically do not receive that training.
    A: So the Gecko, the TAG designed for boarding actions does not get trained to be steely in the face of return fire. the TAG meant to break into the airlock and take the hits because there is nothing with heavier armor than them in that theater is going to react by taking cover? The Zero-G Gecko does not get the same training that the Zero-G HI with half it's armor does? And what about the Szala? The black hand spends more money and time training the Anaconda Squadron than it does it's own TAGs? The Lizard Squadron, which is occasionally described as a cult and operates under Jurisdictional command and weilds one of the deadlier armaments of Praxis is not courageous or religious?

    3. Okay Karush, but you already made this post?
    A: I... okay good point, but there I had four other points I was arguing and people kept getting off topic or inventing counter arguments to things I never argued (i.e. Avatar, Visual Mods, etc.) So I thought I'd make a more focused post. Bring the discussion to a single point rather than a compendium on why Nomad TAGs play like N3 TAGs.

    So yeah.. Discuss?
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    It's a trade-off for having the best engineers and Hacking network to support your TAGs?

    Edit: Space is not the most dangerous place known to man, that is in fact Neo-Glasgow just after the pubs call last orders.
     
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  3. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    Meta answer: Balance. The most common complaint is that Nomads are OP, especially Vanilla. Nomads are fine and are rated very highly in being competitive.

    Fluff answer: Courage by the rules state "This trooper is unafraid of death and ready to lay down his life in the execution of his duty." Nomads are individuals and practical. TAGs are costly and getting out of the way of deadly fire is logical and makes sense. Having Courage means overriding common sense. The other factions pilots are either trained to have a fanatical faith in their armor (YuJing and Haqqislam) or are hundreds of miles away from the battlefield and in no real danger (PanO, O-12, Combined).

    In addition, all of Nomad pilots/operators have full on firearms (submachine guns, combis, HMGs) versus the usual LSGs other pilots have. Some have KHDs. The pilots are armed like the TAG getting knocked out is a setback, but doesn't leave them defenseless. They continue being scrappy, unlike other pilots. The nomad units that currently have the rule Courage makes sense, but I see no reason why the TAGs should.
     
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  4. SpectralOwl

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    To expand on this, Nomads are *supposed* to excel in sneaky underdog play (Hacking, soft control, sneaking with markers etc.) at the cost of their direct firepower and ability to win a slugfight in the open. Basically the opposite of PanO. As a result, Nomads get things like optimised top-tier Hackers, full access to vision blockers and a wide range of Skirmishers and AD- but also, until recently, had a faction-wide shortage of MSV, bad HMG choices and (the only one that's still true after Correggidor got buffed into the stratosphere) the least reliable TAGs in the game. You can't count on a Lizard to do what a Tikbalang or Avatar can, so you need to use your control options and tricks to create a better opportunity for your TAG to exploit.
     
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  5. karush

    karush Member

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    Okay so in theory let's say the Nomads TAGs did get courage or religious, what would you do with them that would be super OP?

    Yeah except the gecko is explicitly cheap and easy to maintain, and if military surplus works in the infinity universe like it does in real life the rest of the reptile series is also easy to procure and replace. Additionally I find it hard to believe that any of the major powers have a harder time replacing a TAG than say the JSA or a Mercenary Company. Especially if that Merc company hails from the nomad nation and is "not" funded by the Black Hand. Seems weird that the anaconda squadron would have an easier time getting replacements than the nomads. After all, the nomads almost destabilized Araidna's grip on the tesseum market, explicitly has better mining contracts than Pan-O, and literally run the black market through the arachne network. Finding materials and money sounds like it would not be an issue.

    Do the Raicho, Guijia, Anaconda, and Oyoroi not exist in the game any more? Cause I could find them in the app and their have a combi-rfile with assault pistol +1B and demo charges, SMG, Spitfire, and Contender with flash pulse at wip 13 respectively. And they all also have courage or religious. Only major faction with LSGs as the ubiquitious tag pilot weapon is Haq.
     
  6. karush

    karush Member

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    Question, did I mention the avatar? Did I mention the Tikbalang? No, except to point out how people tend to jump to "Oh you want a super TAG!" any time I suggest our TAGs could use a tweak. So why mention it?

    All I want a TAG to do, is sit in cover (being armor 9 or 11 effectively) and NOT duck and cover when it is hit by a combi-rifle. I specifically want a TAG in suppression to hold a fire lane against a random hit from a power 13 gun, instead of seeking cover and ruining that plan 35% of the time it is hit. Not a crit, not a wound, a hit. That is all it takes to send an armor 11 model scampering.

    I agree we nomads need to use our control options, I am just arguing we should have this tool as it is otherwise ubiquitous.
     
  7. karush

    karush Member

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    hehehe but no one lives in Neo-Glasgow, they are all just "passing through"

    Legit that is a decent argument except for the existence of CA, Aleph, and even Hag strangely enough. All of them have excellent engineers (wip 14, or 15), surprisingly good repeater/pitcher coverage, and two of them have remote presence TAGs (re-roll repair rolls) and better gizmokit values (fun fact the cut off is pan-o and better tech level vs. yujing and worse tech level. Morats are unique at gizmokit=12 on the Raicho *shrug*). Basically yes the Nomads can do a superb job of supporting a TAG, but it is hardly unique these days, especially considering the number of Main Battle TAGs (S7, armor 7 or better, etc) that can Duo so they bring along a hacker or engineer... except in the nomads (rant on that is elsewhere :P )
     
  8. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    So why does Nomads have to fit that bill? If just about everyone else has that ability, why not use a different faction? Not every faction has the same capabilities. Not all factions need the same capabilities.
     
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  9. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Aleph and CA don't have anything close to the Repeater network of Nomads, they have far fewer cheap Pitchers in Fireteams, infiltrating repeaters like the Morans, Zero, Spektr, or Bandits, or any Airborne Repeaters like the Hellcat, Tomcat, or Meteor Zond. Haqq have some decent Pitchers and Infiltrating Repeater options but lack HD+ access or the sheer variety brought by Nomads.

    Arguably the only faction that even gets close in Repeater Networks is Druze, who don't have the top tier hackers to utilise it as effectively as Nomads.
     
  10. karush

    karush Member

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    Then have I got some Aleph and CA players you need to meet. Yes the nomads have the best coverage, but CA and Aleph are not slouches either. For supporting TAGs they have repeaters and drones that do the job very well. Scylla alone is scary.
     
  11. karush

    karush Member

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    Because it is a capability built into the design philosophy of N4, that factions should be able to do so and the Nomads can't. If your chess set were missing a white knight would you try to fix it or just say "well not all players need two knights"?

    You'd fix it. You would see a glaring oversight and fix it. You'd then check if another peices were missing or damaged and try to fix that too. And that is what I am trying to do, get a problem talked about and hopefully fixed.
     
  12. karush

    karush Member

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    Since I answered your question, care to answer mine? What would you do with a courageous Nomad TAG that would be OP? Any of them, your pick.
     
  13. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    Citation Needed. \s

    But seriously, why do you think that was in the design philosophy of N4? Guts Rolls are a critical part of the rules. They have weight. It seems like you believe that Nomad TAGs should be able to ignore it just because the other factions can?

    Basically, I do not understand why you are so fixated on the one absolutely tiny thing that Nomads can't due versus the huge vast things other things they have...

    Edit: To answer your question: To me and how I interpret it by the reading of the description of the rules, Courage is insane stupid bravery. If you get shot, it is common sense and practical to get out the way. Nomads are defined in the fluff many times as practical and independent. Getting out of the line of fire when being shot makes sense for me. Nomad TAGS not having Courage makes sense to how I see the fluff.

    As for would Nomads having Courage on their TAGs being OP? Not really. I just don't think Nomads really need anything else right now. They are really really good. I like factions having weaknesses and the fluff reason for the lack of Courage makes sense to me.

    TAGs in general are the best they have been in a long time. All the TAGS in the game (except the Structure 2 ones) are in a good place right now.
     
    #13 Brokenwolf, Nov 30, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2021
  14. karush

    karush Member

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    You have said Nomad TAGs are OP, I am saying they need courage. If we are already OP, what new OP things could we do if we had courage. What new tricks would it open up for us? Or do you prefer having only one knight when playing chess?

    as for Citation:
    "But why do I think they made a concerted effort to make TAGs courageous or at least religious? Well, because they did. TAGs such as the Guijia and Maghariba that did not have it in N3 gained it in this edition. Heck the Maghariba was even an example of failing a courage test in the N3 rule book. Additionally with the un-nesting of rules they made sure EVERY remote presence TAG has courage or religious. Basically for a pair of rules that were not universal before, they made sure it was on EVERYTHING except the TAGs that we know were finished first."

    In short if it were not a design philosophy of the new edition, then why is it so prevalent now? Why go through the effort?
     
  15. SpectralOwl

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    You get the tool (suppressing armour brick), it's just not as reliable as other factions' equivalents. While a Nomad TAG has a chance of running in terror when a Pistol shot bounces off a Szally's cockpit, you've got unparalled access to force multipliers for that same strategy- cheap Morlocks and regular Jaguars can threaten an Order-wasting Smoke throw as well as scare off nearby CC threats, Hackers can stop heavies and most Links from moving into positions where they can bring their AP firepower to bear as well as nullify the threat of enemy Hacking, cheap midfield control options like Mines and Koalas mire your opponents and make them waste more orders getting to the point they could even threaten that suppressing TAG. And those same TAGs hit just as hard on the active counterattack as any other faction's.

    Use what your faction provides to get the most out of your TAG lists- my Szally lists for Vanilla Nomads look very different from my favoured NCA Squalo list, primarily because of the support each faction provides and the weaknesses it needs to cover.
     
  16. Amusedbymuse

    Amusedbymuse Well-Known Member

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    All you want is super reliable suppressing brick on top of everything nomads already have. This is your trade-off. My guijia can eat a pistol shot and not hide in fear, but I don't have Moran's, pitchers, 15 wip engineers or hackers, any HD+ or upgrades on my hackers to support it. Using your example, you might lose a Knight but you get a 2nd Queen in that spot. Now would you like to play against 2 Queens in chess?
     
  17. infyrana

    infyrana Well-Known Member

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    I'd be very interested in reading your list ideas please. Happy to see them in private if you prefer. Curious now as I've got my Szally on order for my growing Tunguskans, but I just know I'll likely enjoy mixing Vanilla units at some point.
     
  18. Rejnhard

    Rejnhard Well-Known Member

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    I support cowardly nomad tags in the name of less faction-sameness.
    Fluff: it's hard for Nomads to get TAGs and spare parts so pilots are taught not to act as moving bulwarks.
     
  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Kind of a weird hill to pick to die on. Usually when people ask for buffs they're actually useful instead of a skill that will pointlessly make attack pieces more expensive, or in the case of religious an actual detriment more likely to get the damn thing killed.
     
  20. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    If it gives you some comfort, HaqqIslam Najjarun are one of the few engineers without Deactivators. When N4 dropped, I immediately noticed and dutifully reported as an Army Bug. After two attempts, I was notified it was not a bug. I have no idea why Najjarun lacked Deactivators (with all the pitchers/deployable repeaters have new use), but I had to accept that CB made that choice and work around that.
     
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