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Nimbus + Smoke

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by locksmith, Mar 29, 2018.

  1. locksmith

    locksmith comlog active

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    [​IMG]
    Ist Short Skill
    Red has MSV2 and is standing in normal Smoke and a Nimbus zone, declares Idle.

    Initial ARO
    Green has no MSV and no ARO
    Blue has MSV 2, declares BS Attack

    2nd Short Skill
    Red declares Shoot with a boarding shotgun and allocates 1 AP shot each to Green and Blue.

    Final ARO
    Green gains an ARO once the attack is declared and declares a dodge.

    Resolution
    Red and Blue are both affected by Nimbus and Ignore Smoke.

    Question:
    How is the Nimbus visibility MOD applied to Greens dodge?

    1. It is ignored; Green has no LOF, only the ability to declare a dodge granted by bullet 4 of the effects of ZV Zone. WIthout LOF, the visibility MOD of Nimbus does not apply.
    2. The Dodge is rolled at -3 because the MSV attack grants unmodified LOF for a dodge.
    3. The Dodge is rolled at -3 because the options are either 0 MOD for Dodge When Attacked Through Smoke or -3 for Nimbus and the Red Box God tells us to apply the 'most obscuring' Mod.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Zero_Visibility_Zone
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Nimbus_Special_Ammunition
     
  2. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Nimbus_Special_Ammunition apply Low Visibility and Saturation Zone.
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Low_Visibility_Zone apply a -3 to all skills... the link also has a FAQ entry indicating that the Dodging trooper suffers the -3, because the attack started/crossed a zone of Low Vis:
    N3 Frequently Asked Question Updated: 1.1
    Q: How do the MODs for Low/Poor Visibility Zones apply to Dodge Rolls? And to Engage?
    A: The MODs apply whenever a Skill, Special Skill or piece of Equipment requires LoF and is declared from, into or through a Low or Poor Visibility Zone. Note that if the trooper is within the Visibility Zone this also applies to Dodge Rolls against template weapons from outside LoF. So:
    • Any Dodge declared inside a Low/Poor Visibility Zone suffers the negative MOD, even in Close Combat or if the Dodge didn’t involve LoF.
    • Any Dodge which LoF to the enemy trooper passes into/out/through a Low/Poor Visibility Zone suffers the penalty.
    The negative MOD will also apply to the Engage Common Skill.

    Related Pages: Low Visibility Zone, Poor Visibility Zone, Dodge, Engage
     
  3. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Yeah... it's a bit tricky, but I think the result would be dodging on a PH-3. Overlapping visibility zones means you apply the worst penalty, but you don't stack them. Zero-Viz Zone basically grants you a Dodge as if you had LoF, but that is still passing through the Low-Viz Zone, so the overlap ends up with a -3 as your worst penalty.
     
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  4. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That's stacking the penalties (ie you've applied by zones).
     
  5. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    The penalty to Dodge from the ZVZ is ... 0. So you take the worst one, you don't add them together. Hence, -3 from Nimbus.

    Just like shooting back instead of Dodging would be a -6 from ZVZ, not a -9 from ZVZ+LVZ.
     
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  6. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Sure you're applying the worst MOD to Dodge. So you're not stacking MODs.

    But you're still applying both 'Effects'. Ie you're stacking effects.

    I honestly don't know what the answer is, and I'd probably play it however my opponent wanted to (unless they were Tohaa), but arguing that blocking LOF and - 3 to Dodge is not stacking penalties is wrong.

    Tl;dr it will be -3 to Dodge if you just can't stack MODs. It will be - 0 to Dodge if you can't stack Effects.
     
  7. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    The rules text mentioned specifies MODs as not stacking. (Red Box on ZVZ page)

    I have to say I don't feel like you're stacking an effect if you are Dodging, because you're no longer suffering from the effect of blocked LoF. You just got to Dodge when you otherwise would not have.
     
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  8. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Then you're correct, it'll be -3 to Dodge. :)
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Minor note, but if RED had opted for Blast mode, then GREEN would be at PH-6 for Dodge (-3 from Nimbus, -3 from affected by template weapon with no LOF (this is not a visibility zone MOD))
     
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  10. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Not quite, zero v says if you were target by a bs attack, you can dodge at no mods. Impact template says everyone under the template is being targeted.
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    And template weapons say you get a -3 to Dodge when you can't see your target, which you can't when shot through smoke.
     
  12. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    You are correct sir. While zero v zones let you respond back with actions, they never give you lof, which you need to not get that -3 for templates. Good to note.
     
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  13. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
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    The most obscuring zone is the zero-vis zone thus the dodge will be a normal dodge for green.
     
  14. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Spanish version disagrees:

    http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/es/...no_Especial&redirect=no#Visibility_Conditions
    The underscored part? Ends with "only the bigger one will be applied". As in "the bigger MOD", not "the worst visibility condition", which "the most obscuring one" seems to point at.

    Summoning @ijw as the one who translated the wiki :/
     
  15. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
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    As far as I remember it was said the English version is superior to all other versions.
    Personally I'd argue no sight at all is the biggest MOD possible in the hierachy of worsening visibility conditions.
     
    #15 Tristan228, Apr 1, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    English version disagrees with you as well, that sentence is referring to MODs and it says MODs don't stack and zero vis doesn't apply any MODs to Dodge so there's nothing to override low vis' MOD.
     
  17. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
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    You might reread the example underneath.
    Logic applied to the sitution at hand you have to treat that low vis / zero vis zone as a Zero Vis Zone.
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That's not what that example says. The example says that poor vis area has a larger negative MOD and is therefore the more obscuring.
     
  19. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    In the example you treat it all as Poor Visibility because Poor Visibility has a worse MOD.
     
  20. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
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    Yeah I just realized that. But still no vis is the most obstructing zone. MODs can't obstruct anything. And if MODs are meant why aren't MODs mentioned?
     
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