Hi, Just getting into Tohaa, coming from Pano. As Vanilla Pano lacks in things that are not about shooting everything in the face, I wanted to try something new, like smoke grenades, chain of command, interesting loadouts, B4 DT + Shock+ EVERYWHERE, lots of orders, order efficiency (though one can argue that moving around a HMG Swiss guard and shooting stuff is as order efficient as it gets), link teams (I haven't played any sectorials, just Vanilla, so link teams are totally new for me, especially unlimited amount of them). It's already weird that there are no BS14/15 here. I'm reading through Lonely artichoke, but still have my noob questions: Sakiel is good because it's cheap, has 2 Wounds, and comes with nice loadouts like the Spitfire or the Viral combi one (and 2W specialist options). I don't get why are they bad LT options I don't get what's the rage about Panzerfaust Kosuil. My main problem is the 0.5SWC, while minelayer is 0. So my first choice would be the 0SWC minelayer, and ignore that it's not an engineer. I suppose Taqeul's targeting mines can't be used in the active turn, so you can't use it for Smart rocket launcher shenanigans, "only" to grant a +3BS for your AROs on some trooper that comes too close? Did anyone actually used a Baggage chaksa to replenish either a Panzerfaust or Symbiobugs? Seems like really circumstantial. I understand Kumotail is fragile and expensive, and you can have a lot of Paramedics, but usually you are still lot better off with a Doctor heal (with re-rolls) than with a PH10-11 Medkit heal If Neema is your LT and gets isolated, that means it breaks the link immediately, you'll get LoLed next active turn, so you need to "repair" her with an engineer, then reform the link, right? I try to find a learning curve to get into Tohaa, as there are lot of new and interesting troops here, here's my first try, mostly with the first two missions of the Treason narrative event in mind (Annihilation and Safe area): Tohaa ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 2 SAKIEL Viral Combi Rifle, Nimbus Plus Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24) KAMAEL Paramedic (Medikit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13) SUKEUL HMG, D-Charges / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 35) SAKIEL Paramedic (Medikit) Combi Rifle, Nimbus Plus Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20) MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13) CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10) CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10) CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10) CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10) GROUP 2 7 1 SUKEUL Lieutenant (Forward Observer) K1 Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32) KAMAEL Paramedic (Medikit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13) KAMAEL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 16) KAMAEL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 16) KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21) IGAO Boarding Shotgun, Stun Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 25) 3 SWC | 296 Points Open in Infinity Army The members of the triads are grouped together.
Sakiel is good because it's cheap, has 2 Wounds, and comes with nice loadouts like the Spitfire or the Viral combi one (and 2W specialist options). I don't get why are they bad LT options Sakiel are great lt options, that viral combi is a nice way to get a heavy weapon into a triad for 0swc. I don't get what's the rage about Panzerfaust Kosuil. My main problem is the 0.5SWC, while minelayer is 0. So my first choice would be the 0SWC minelayer, and ignore that it's not an engineer. I suspect this is a little dated, at the time of release we were fairly limited for symbio specialists and shotguns in triads, now we have Sukeul and Kaeltar providing this. I suppose Taqeul's targeting mines can't be used in the active turn, so you can't use it for Smart rocket launcher shenanigans, "only" to grant a +3BS for your AROs on some trooper that comes too close? Correct, although the targeted state apparently counts for the classified.
Sakiel is not a bad Lt, there's just better options most of the time. Rasail, for instance, is one of the best choices out there, assuming you have your CoC Kaeltar alive and kicking.
No, Sakiel isn't "bad", it's just an opportunity cost. You can get an independent Lt with the Rasail or Taqeul, a high-WIP/bonus Lt with Neema, or a specialist Lt with the Sukeul. I even recommend the Gao-Rael Lt on some specific builds. But I don't think the Sakiel Lt is a great choice, comparatively speaking, outside of small-point armies. The Kosuil is great because she is an excellent ITS specialist with two guns (BSG and Panzerfaust) that you don't find often in Tohaa. Replicating this kind of utility in a triad.. SUKEUL HMG, D-Charges / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 35) KOSUIL Engineer Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Panzerfaust / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24) MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13) 2 SWC | 72 Points Open in Infinity Army ...without a Shotgun Kosuil, would normally mean forfeiting Eclipse, a SWC weapon, a Symbiont Wound, or the Specialist. The Minelayer Kosuil is indeed great, just not for most ITS missions. In general, I recommend getting it out of your head that you need to save/spend SWC. In Tohaa–like Ariadna, and to a degree Haqq–you can get away with spending less than 5 SWC, since many of our SWCless weapons are so damaging. Eclipse also allows our otherwise range-restricted Viral Combi and K1 Combi to get into +3 range. You're not in PanO anymore.
Thanks for the answers guys! Here you are missing a +3 on 8"-16" range, so replacing the Kosuil with any specialist with a rifle (like Aelis or FO Sukeul, didn't find others. Viral combi paramedic Sakiel anyone? that would be useful) would give you a full +3 range coverage from 0" to 32". Yeah, viral combi seems insane. Lots of shiny new toys here, need to put in some time and games to get used to them.
Yep, Aelis would cost you a wound, Sukeul/Sakiel would cost you a Shotgun. If you need a 8-16, Spitfires abound. Sadly there is no Viral Combi Paramedic.
I think the recommendations for these lt choices fits a particular type of list building approach, units like the Rasail or Neema almost need to be chosen at list inception and warp the list around them. I agree they make better lieutenants than the Sakiel, but I think they are worse units. Advanced command is a bit wierd in Tohaa , again partly due to list building but we are unable to spend command tokens on engineer re-rolls, Hacking re-rolls or Evo supportware, so if you also skip a kumotail which I tend to the tokens mainly flip delegate orders. If it let us reroll pheroware it might help both the Taquel and the bombs see play. Whilst this doesn't effect Neema too much the Taquel really isn't in a great place imo. Re: Kosuil vsAelis. Aelis is almost the antithesis of Tohaa strengths, expensive fragile and lots of kit crammed into one profile, skip unless you really want that khd or you play a ton of Acqusition.
So played my first match as Tohaa. Guess who waltzed in front of a TR REM with a triad without throwing Zero Vis Smoke first?
Rasail is worse? Now that's an explanation I need to hear. I used to think that the Advanced Command was useless. But no, the excellent thing to do in Tohaa with them is reform Triads on the fly. You can shave off a lot of orders or enemy AROs by juggling which models are in which Triads. I never end a Tohaa game with more than 1 Command token.
Oh, and only thing Paramedics did, is that they killed a Sukeul while it was unconscious, in close combat (not really sure, if that's legal, seemed like a loophole in the rules, didn't bother to read more during the game). And also killed a Ninja KHD with sustained heroic combi-rifle fire. That's how bad Kamaels are.
I prefer the FO Kamael, and multiples of them, sprinkled throughout my ARO triads (I place only one big gun, but overlap it with flash pulse lanes of fire) - either they draw fire away from the main ARO piece, or are ignored, and get a free chance to blind key models. And, if they're targeted as the weak link, then the big shot stands even more of a chance of removing whatever snipes at them.
This could probably do with breaking out of this thread, but I might go into more detail later, could you share a Rasail list you would take to a tournament? My issue with him is that he occupies a point range that has to get stuff done, 30-40 points needs to be amazing at what it does. But the Rasail wins raw ftf rolls as often as an unlinked fusilier, the chaksa adds some value and I love Auxilia for those moments where a bs and template combo saves the day. However at this price point its too reliant on misplays too maximise its skills. Most of all though its because once I have built my three triads bar having an extra wound the Rasail offers very little that I don't already have. If at this point I'm not already taking a Sakiel instead opting for a pricier gunfighter its unlikely that I can get a Rasail into the list and have a functional second group. Here is the sort of list I might favour, its a first pass so there is room to wiggle about with upgrades groups. Tohaa ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 9 2 GAO-RAEL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1 | 31) KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21) MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13) SUKEUL HMG, D-Charges / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 35) KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21) MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13) CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10) KERAIL PRECEPTOR Submachine Gun, Smoke Grenades + 1 Surda SymbioBeast / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 20) SURDA SYMBIOBEAST Pulzar / Viral CCW. (0 | 8) CLIPSOS (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25) GROUP 2 6 1 KERAIL PRECEPTOR Submachine Gun, Smoke Grenades + 1 Surda SymbioBeast / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 20) SURDA SYMBIOBEAST Pulzar / Viral CCW. (0 | 8) CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10) MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13) KAMAEL Paramedic (Medikit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) SAKIEL Lieutenant Viral Combi Rifle, Nimbus Plus Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24) NIKOUL Viral Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28) 5 SWC | 298 Points Open in Infinity Army To be fair to the kamael once in b2b they are just as competent as a more expensive paramedic.
You're probably the first person in this forum to suggest the Rasail is NOT amazing. No, I have to fix that: You're probably the first person I've ever heard saying the Rasail is NOT amazing.
For a starter, your list has room for Mines/Minelayer on your Nikoul. Second I would point to asking why you have two Kerails. Do you use them both for Smoke? That's quite the investment for 40 points. But maybe you use one for assault? Well, the assault value you get by gaining +1 Wound, +1 Ballistic Skill, Nanoscreen, and a Mimetism Heavy Flamethrower is far better than your BS11 SMG. Not knocking Kerails, mind you, but Rasails are more likely to push damage through. A Rasail list would depend on the needs of the scenarios, but you could easily replace the second Triad and Kerail with a Rasail and Chaksas/Kaauri. My favourite Rasail Lieutenants are the Combi+Mines and Spitfire.
Actually, that was sarcasm. Dude shot down a ninja (which was burnt down to Mimetism), after I messed up his triad so pulled it's weight. He actually hit the guy with medikit, and killed it, because Medkit have low chance of success, even on a PH roll. Most unit's have PH10-11 on Inactive symbiont armor except for Neema and Armand, and sisnce it's unconscious, it'll use that. That's 50-55% chance, 45-50% to kill it.
Yes I prefaced that list with a now on spare points. As for how to use the double kerails one is sacrificial smoke and the other is a dz guard potential assault piece. Bit of a write up that includes these from last year's interplanetario here http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/50058-interplanetario-listsbatreps/ which iirc was the top tohaa list. Again for an assault piece you get +1 wound, mimetism,screen and a better gun in exchange for smoke 6-4, c.c competency,superjump and dogged on the template piece. They would be comparable profiles if one wasn't 14ish points more. But your suggestions also reinforces my original point, that they warp lists. If you dislike the opportunity cost of a sakiel surely a rasail causing the dissolution of a triad is an even greater cost. Now you might not mind this, but it is a significant decision to make.
I think it comes down to how you use triads. Given previous comments you like max triads, I like only having 1 or 2 key ones and solo pieces as I find it more flexible. To each their own.
Absolutely true. Dassan's articles are a great resource which I would definately point players towards despire me often disagreeing with the content, but I think its okay to vocalise a differing opinion especially when new players are researching the faction.
i agree the rasail isn't worth the points usually. but it seems whenever anyone argues that here, they get shouted down, so whatever.
they are actually pretty decent, but the sukeul FO LT is just so much better, for only 8 more points. minelayer isn't so great for guys without infiltration. also, tohaa in my experience usually have swc to spare, unless you are building a very ARO intensive list well they also potentially kill dudes, but yeah. the taqeul seems pretty hard to use effectively. i dunno if anyone is a super fan of it. it is very circumstantial. the baggage guys are neat tho because we can bring 4 of them, where the most anyone else can bring is 2. so for missions that care about points, you can start with a 40 point advantage. plus, they can be prone, where other baggage guys can't, and they don't have a dodge penalty. and they can shoot pistols with triangulated fire, which you will do more often then replenish weapons. that, and the g- servant model they can bring is the best helper in the game. the kumotail is definitely worth bringing for any mission that has 2 or more classifieds. on a side note, never complain about our linkable doctor/engineer to anyone from another faction, except mebbe aleph. alternatively, and i'm a bit surprised no one has pointed this out, you can have her voluntarily deactivate her symbiont armor to remove the isolated. (also works with immobilized). this of course removes the extra wounds granted by the armor, but it is usually quite a surprise to your opponent. as a bonus, when you do that, her troop type changes from heavy infantry to light infantry, which makes her mostly unhackable going forward. side note: this is one of the advantages of running sukeul LT. Sukeul has veteran L1, which makes her immune to isolated.