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New tohaa player Looking for guidance

Discussion in 'Tohaa' started by Renfri, May 2, 2018.

  1. Renfri

    Renfri Well-Known Member

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    So far an ALEPH player, I have jumped the gun and became Artichoke.

    I was lucky enough to find a large second-hand collection, I looked up the profiles and the options, but the structure is so different that I am used to that I don't really know where to start to build an army.

    I have a 250pts game coming up and would like some guidance for a list that would allow me to discover my new army. I am no looking for an ultra competitive list, I'll be playing with a new-ish player and would like to get the basics : effective triads / main button pushers / main killers
     
  2. perseus

    perseus Angry Clown

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    well i can suggest you to take 3 triads.
    how about making one defensive triad with a kamael sniper.
    and other 2 with button pushing and killing bad humans.
    and chaksa or clipso fo for totally 10 members.
     
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  3. andre61

    andre61 Well-Known Member

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    That is a great Ideal to have a defensive triad, I will start doing that the next time I'm making a new list, What is your success rate?
     
  4. Aemaru

    Aemaru Well-Known Member

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    Lol i never used kamael sniper
    Prefer gao rael sniper/ nikoul (out of a fireteam bit very effective)/ or a clipso sniper (hidden dep + to camo) but not sure for the kamael

    Think your actives triads with one makaul(well basic one with viral cc weapon is the best) -one shooter(sukeul hmg, sakiel spitfire etc)- one button pusher (example : kaeltar coc, kamael fo etc)
    My shorts advices
    Hope you will enjoy your new toys
     
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  5. Zandramaas

    Zandramaas Member

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    I'd recommend something along the lines of:

    [​IMG] Tohaa
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] RASAIL Lieutenant Viral Combi Rifle + 1 Chaksa Peripheral / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 39)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] CHAKSA PERIPHERAL Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (- | 4)
    [​IMG] GAO-RAEL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1 | 31)
    [​IMG] SUKEUL Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 36)
    [​IMG] KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21)
    [​IMG] SUKEUL HMG, D-Charges / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 35)
    [​IMG] SAKIEL (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Nimbus Plus Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
    [​IMG] MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)
    [​IMG] SAKIEL Viral Combi Rifle, Nimbus Plus Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    [​IMG] SAKIEL (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Nimbus Plus Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
    [​IMG] MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)

    4.5 SWC | 250 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    This gives you:
    • A rambo lieutenant, whose you can afford to sacrifice because you have a CoC Kaeltar.
    • A defensive link (Gao-Rael Sniper, Sukeul Missile Launcher and Kaeltar CoC).
    • Two offensive link teams (1: Sukeul HMG, Sakiel FO and Makaul, 2: Sakiel Viral Combi, Sakiel FO and Makaul). Each has a main gunner/offensive piece (Sukeul HMG and Sakiel Viral Combi), a specialist to push buttons (Sakiel FO) and a Makaul. The Makaul adds eclipse smoke allowing you to cover advances, but also gives you a very effective CC option to your links.
    • Two Symbiomates!!! (for happy fun times).
    This is by no means a perfect list and we could offer better advice if you give detail of which mission you are playing. But, this should be a fairly decent starting point.
     
  6. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Sukeul ML/Gao Rael Sniper/Kaelter CoC triad has become known in my local area as "the overwatch triad" also known as "that bullshit" lol... It is quite effective for ARO/defensive if you deploy it well.
     
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  7. Thaddius

    Thaddius Well-Known Member

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    I am often interested in this kind of Triad. My experiences of it has been it's always possible to pie slice one unit to putting two long ranged ARO pieces doesn't work that well for me. Do you keep only one long range piece up or do you try to maximise their coverage?
     
  8. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Generally I purposefully deploy them at separate elevations covering two different fire lanes, avoiding the possibility of both being hit by a single template shot (especially the HGL one of our local Nomad players is very fond of right now). If they can cover the same alleys as well by doing this, great, if not, oh well.

    This forces my opponent to spend a lot of time figuring out how to deal with them to be able to do anything, if you position them over objectives in fire lanes. This does some times rely on winning the initiative roll and choosing deployment.

    Last game I played, the two were almost in a line with each other, but the Gao Rael was elevated, sitting prone on top of the corner that the Sukeul was using for cover at ground level. The mission was Biotechvore, and I was able to counter deploy my opponent's setup so hard that he spent his whole turn trying to get past this group and failing (overlapping smoke and white noise zones was clever, but order intensive, and not far enough up the board), and proceeded to lose basically his whole list on BTS-vore rolls.

    Some times it gets cracked open and they die, but if my opponent spends their whole first turn on one defensive triad while I still have another offensive triad (at a minimum) as well as maybe Igao/Clipsos waiting to play, they did their job well. Rounding out the defensive triad with a Kaeltar usually means I have a CoC model hiding in the back somewhere out of site, as well, and he does double duty to watch the backs of the long-range weapons platforms with a shotgun. It's all very pleasingly synergistic! :)
     
  9. Zandramaas

    Zandramaas Member

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    It depends on what mission you are playing and what army you are playing against.

    I would always keep them far enough apart so that they would not both be hit by a template, and I would usually give both of them a symbiomate.

    If the mission requires defending a single point like an AC2 or there are a lot of points tied up in a single objective I may set them both up overlooking the objective. However I would just as often have them covering two different fire lanes to make approaching the objective more order intensive.

    The main thing to remember is that because they are ARO pieces, they will die. The aim is to force the opponent to spend as many orders as possible to do so. It is also a good thing sometimes if you fail your guts and go prone after forcing your opponent to use a few orders stripping your mate and symbiont armour because keeping the order for yourself and having additional active the options is always good.
     
  10. Magonus

    Magonus Well-Known Member

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    Welcome @Renfri to the Tohaa Master Race!

    You've gotten some good advice here, and you will be able to translate a lot of your Steel Phalanx competence to Tohaa triads. Like ALEPH, there is generous supply of Smoke/Eclipse, Templates, and points/value models. I would say what you are getting here in Tohaa over ALEPH is trading BS attack, WIP and infowar superiority for Wound and Mobility superiority. Tohaa is not significantly vulnerable to shock, and like ALEPH, we have generous BTS, so we can wade through a lot of the more "oblique" attacks in the game.

    I'd bet you'll be bound to love cheap Clipsos, Sakiels, Baggage Chaskas, and Makauls in particular. Our low SWC snipers aren't particularly threatening against big targets, but they do just fine to suppress light stuff, in a way that ALEPH/Steel Phalanx can't with your 1.5 SWC MSRs and Feuerbachs. And of course you know about the absolute power of Eclipse from Machaon and Eudoros.:relieved:

    If you don't already own them in your new collection, I recommend the Trident Starter, Kerail Preceptors, Rasail Boarding Team, Gao-Rael double blister, Chaksa Auxiliars, Shotgun Kosuil, and an extra Sakiel and Sukeul as your priority buys.
     
  11. Renfri

    Renfri Well-Known Member

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    Hi all, and thank you for your good advice.

    And special thanks to @Magonus for his kind words, and fantastic guide pinned at the top of the Tohaa section.

    I don't play Steel Phalanx, but mostly vanilla. But everything you said was true & helpful. The biggest shock from ALEPH was "damn, I still got that many SWC left ??" when building in ALEPH I usually run out of SWC halfway down the list.

    The 250pts went quite well. I don't have the list underhand but ran 2 triads with several soloers to try. The sukeul is stellar and performed very well and makauls eclispe felt like cheating.

    I don't know how it is perceived on the forums, but I bought a second hand army and have pretty much everything as I don't think I would be interested in another AD trooper, and have already ordered Neema & the ML Sukeul.

    I built a 300pts on my own, but I am not completely satisfied with it as I do not have a medic. I am considering leaving the minelayer Nikoul for a regular one and changing the Sakiel from Foward Observer to Paramedic.

    I know the clipsos is pretty obvious, I am considering moving him to group 2 and change him back to 1 with a command token. But my main issue with the list is the absence of medikit.

    [​IMG] Tohaa
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] SUKEUL HMG, D-Charges / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 35)
    [​IMG] NEEMA Lieutenant (Advanced Command) Breaker Combi Rifle, Panzerfaust, Nanopulser / Viral Pistol, Shock CCW. (+1 | 46)
    [​IMG] KOSUIL Engineer Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Panzerfaust / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    [​IMG] SAKIEL Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 23)
    [​IMG] SAKIEL (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Nimbus Plus Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
    [​IMG] MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)
    [​IMG] GAO-RAEL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1 | 31)
    [​IMG] KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21)
    [​IMG] MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)
    [​IMG] CLIPSOS (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] KERAIL PRECEPTOR Submachine Gun, Smoke Grenades + 1 Surda SymbioBeast / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 20)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] SURDA SYMBIOBEAST Pulzar / Viral CCW. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] NIKOUL Minelayer Viral Sniper Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)

    6.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Ideas ?
     
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  12. Wombat85

    Wombat85 Well-Known Member

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    What missions is this list for?
     
  13. Renfri

    Renfri Well-Known Member

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    No specified mission yet, so I am going with something diverse with several specialists along with strong killing power.
     
  14. Thaddius

    Thaddius Well-Known Member

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    Good list. I might just switch the Clipsos FO to group 2 and put the Kerail into group 1. It's a sweeper/active turn kill piece. If the opportunity presents itself it can do a lot of damage. The Clipsos FO i see more as a late objective grabber. It can probably switch groups later game.

    If you consider trading Neema for a Sukeul FO LT (Specialist LT's are crazy good) you can also trade the Kosuil for a Sakiel Paramedic/another Kaeltar CoC or something with points to spare. Maybe include a chaksa auxilia? I like the BSG profile but I think it's another option that can be quite nasty. Nothing wrong with 4 mates. Play to faction strengths.
     
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  15. Renfri

    Renfri Well-Known Member

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    @Thaddius Yes, after further thinking moving the clipsos to the 2st group is the sensible idea and makes the clipsos less obvious.

    Taking your other advice into account I get this :

    I removed Neema, and the Kosuil as well since he was mostly here to engineer her armor lest worse befall. My lieutenant is now a Rasail, and I added an Igao just because.

    So I am down to 2 triads, which is not such an issue, but I am not sure if I should play the Sukeul as a solo killer, keeping my other 2 triads as they were, or if I should go for a Sukeul + Spit-Sakiel + Medi-Sakiel or Sukeul + either Sakiel + Makaul

    [​IMG] Tohaa
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] SUKEUL HMG, D-Charges / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 35)
    [​IMG] SAKIEL Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 23)
    [​IMG] MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)
    [​IMG] SAKIEL Paramedic (Medikit) Combi Rifle, Nimbus Plus Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
    [​IMG] GAO-RAEL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1 | 31)
    [​IMG] KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21)
    [​IMG] MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)
    [​IMG] KERAIL PRECEPTOR Submachine Gun, Smoke Grenades + 1 Surda SymbioBeast / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 20)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] SURDA SYMBIOBEAST Pulzar / Viral CCW. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] RASAIL Lieutenant Viral Combi Rifle + 1 Chaksa Peripheral / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 39)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] CHAKSA PERIPHERAL Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (- | 4)
    [​IMG] IGAO Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Stun Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 27)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] CLIPSOS (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    [​IMG] NIKOUL Minelayer Viral Sniper Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)

    6 SWC | 297 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  16. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    An unlinked Sukeul is wasted potential. You want that burst 5 HMG.
     
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  17. Zandramaas

    Zandramaas Member

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    Firstly, as I think has been mentioned above, general lists in Infinity are almost always inferior to lists designed with a particular mission in mind.

    However, looking at your list, there are a few amendment I would make:
    1. Having two combat groups, with only two in the second combat group is not very effective. I would recommend when taking a two combat group list, ideally you want 10 orders in the main group, with 5 or 6 in the secondary group, with 4 being the realistic minimum. If you are getting down to 11-13 orders, then it is probably more effective to go to either a LI 10 list to prevent the tactical uses of command tokens, or to swap some things out to get a few more cheap orders.
    2. Your triads seem to be a little messy. You have 7 triad members in the main group, which in itself isn't a bad thing as the spare member gives redundancy, however you need to have roles for your triads. For example Gao-Rael Snipers are incredible units and I almost always bring one. Conversely, it is a fairly static piece with it's 4-2 movement. As such they make great defensive ARO pieces, but you probably don;t want one in a triad that is walking up the board to press buttons. A route I often follow is:
      • A offensive triad as an active turn killer (usually a Sukeul HMG, a cheap specialist for redundancy maybe a Sakiel FO and a Makaul).
      • A defensive triad (possibly Sukeul ML, Gao Rael Sniper and a CoC Kaeltar).
      • A backup triad (Either Sukeul, Sakiel & Makaul or a double Sakiel Makaul; each including at least one specialist)
    You might end up with something closer to this:

    [​IMG] Tohaa
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] RASAIL Lieutenant Spitfire + 1 Chaksa Peripheral / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 39)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] CHAKSA PERIPHERAL Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (- | 4)
    [​IMG] SUKEUL HMG, D-Charges / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 35)
    [​IMG] SAKIEL (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Nimbus Plus Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
    [​IMG] MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)
    [​IMG] GAO-RAEL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1 | 31)
    [​IMG] SAKIEL Combi Rifle, Light Rocket Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 23)
    [​IMG] KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21)
    [​IMG] CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] KAAURI Sentinel Submachine Gun, 2 Nanopulsers, Nullifier / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 12)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] CLIPSOS (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    [​IMG] SAKIEL Viral Combi Rifle, Nimbus Plus Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    [​IMG] SAKIEL Paramedic (Medikit) Combi Rifle, Nimbus Plus Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
    [​IMG] MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)
    [​IMG] DIPLOMATIC DELEGATE (iKohl L1, Specialist Operative) Nanopulser, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    That said, this is more my personal preferences, and not hard and fast rules.
     
  18. Renfri

    Renfri Well-Known Member

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    Pulling my own thread back up to avoid too many threads.

    I have been experimenting with the ML Sukeul, mostly as an ARO piece as suggested, but I was wondering if any of you guys experimented her in a more mobile role. I wanted to try and pair her with a Spitfire unit to have total range band coverage (light shotgun / spitfire / ML).

    I was wondering if an assault triad with a ML Sukeul, Spitfire Gao-rael/sakiel and makaul would be dangerous as I would be putting too many eggs into one basket ?
     
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  19. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Spitfire Gao-rael and HMG Sukeul can handle most problems on their active turn. Not sure about active turn ML Sukeul. As an ARO piece it's really good, until they start shooting through smoke.

    ML still has a B2, which isn't much. Funny thing with templates that they are really scary in ARO, as your opponent has to position properly, otherwise troops around the main one just suffer all normal hits without anything to do but their armor to save them.
     
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  20. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Oh yes, I have tried her in mobile form... just awesome, people tend to forget she also carries a Shotgun, even if I have handed them the courtesy list and explained the equipment of every trooper. Vulkan Ectros is nastier and has more chances surviving (and dodges Mines better), but Sukeul's Mimetism helps winning FtF rolls.

    Sukeul can shoot through White Noise, while Gao-Rael can shoot through Smoke. You can add a Makaul or a Specialist (better if it is a Sakiel so he can heal with Symbiobombs at Will 13 instead of PH10, or even a Kosuil) to roud the Triad, and then proceed to Move+Shoot until you have arrived to the other side of the table :p
     
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