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New to JSA need some advices on Supremacy

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Aemaru, Dec 6, 2019.

  1. Aemaru

    Aemaru Well-Known Member
    Warcor Aristeia

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    Hello !

    I might have miss some things so I’m looking forward to have some advices from experimented JSa players on this particular scenario.
    I don’t like playing under 15 orders usually and I see the tankaru/domako ft like somthing fitting perfectly to this scenario but unsure. I’m playing against IA this time.
    I never tried Karakuri/ shilami and this big ft ...
    What’s your advices and experiences´ feedbacks ?
     
  2. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    The Ninja Assault Hacking Device, although very expensive, can be a good piece in that scenario. It's worth 40 points to contest, has the Hacker bonus for the Consoles and if you're against IA, you'll have very juicy targets to Carbonite.
    Oniwaban fills a similar role, but trade the utilty for the firepower.

    Karakuri are excellent to hold zones, since they don't really lose gunfights. Ryuken's also hold to Quadrants fairly well, with Mines and Suppressive Fire.

    Yojimbo brings smoke so that you can traverse the field at relative ease and settle down on a quadrant as well as bringing Coalas which make enemies approaches harder. Saito and Shinobu also bring smoke and cost 40 points, so they're kind of a middle ground between Yojimbo's smoke utility and Ninja Hacker's role.

    If the table and your list allows it, the Daiyokai and the TAG are potential good additions to try and hold Quadrants.

    Finally you can go with a hefty costed Fireteam: Oyama, 1 or 2 Kempeitai, Yuriko and the ML Keisotsus, this makes your Fireteam worth a lot of points to contest Quadrant, while also giving you a lot of hefty guns to fight (namely the Shock Marksman Rifle, Missile Launchers, Panzerfaust, EXP CCW, etc).
     
    #2 Ashtaroth, Dec 6, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
  3. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Baggage bots are always nice in zone control scenario.

    I always take one regardless in my lists. They combo off with Yojimbo extremely well, allowing you to reload his Koala. This gives you a very defensive coverage in your half of the table.
     
  4. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

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    Ryuken-9 and TO Camo is a good ally here. They start efficiently up the field, and you can dig in nicely with Ryuken-9 mines and strategically reveal your Hidden Deployment guys to claim or contest zones. It's a particularly good mission for TO Camo attackers, since the opponent will be putting high-cost troops in the midfield, within easy striking range of Saito, Oniwaban, etc.

    Karakuri are definitely good here too, particularly with some defensive backup from Ryuken-9. Now that Saito lacks Specialist, the Karakuri are a really nice choice for being able to grab some consoles and contest a zone with a hefty chunk of points.
     
    TheDiceAbide likes this.
  5. Aemaru

    Aemaru Well-Known Member
    Warcor Aristeia

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    Do you often take karakuri on their own or in haris fireteam ?
    I quite struggle to fit to 6 swc and make a list with enough orders with all these missile launcher or heavy rl :)
     
  6. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    I find it very hard to justify the cost of the haris and fit everything else I want.

    If you want to take the haris, I'd definately take the Domaru / Karakuri / Karakuri haris to alleviate the cost. It also helps you deliver a Domaru to the midfield.
     
    Ashtaroth likes this.
  7. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    I usually just take the Mk12 Karakuri. It's often enough threat and resilience that she just does whatever she wants all game.
    She's a good Liaison Officer, Datatracker, and/or Specialist to boot.
     
  8. Aemaru

    Aemaru Well-Known Member
    Warcor Aristeia

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    back from my test game...

    I affronted a fireteam of zuyong with a Haidao vms multisniper (in good range without cover 2dices on 19 in cover 16 + 6th sens+ VMS L2). He caught me on a big transversal lane on his first turn (he played first) blocking any advance of my part. A ninja ADH try to Isolated some members on ARO but first deflector l2 and then a fairydust were too huge to do anything (he even didn't change any plan like keeping move-move with no reset :D and nothing happened) He killed my ruishi ... I misplaced it beginner error so before my first turn I lost a good option ^^

    Options I tried :

    - Impetuous spitfire shot with aragoto 4shots on 12 versus 2 shots 19.. was lucky but didn't kill Haidao.. Absolutly not optimal that sure.
    - MM L2 on lu duan, good range 3 shot at 15 versus 2 shots on 13 but I loose it two times with my engineer between the 2 tries. That was a good option
    - Back on aragoto, died
    - distress was near :D Tried ninja combi rifle I think the worst thing to do. He died. I certainly should have tried in Close combat but Terrain was not ok .. smoke would have been no help and I was way too far to reach anybody in the fireteam in one move.
    - 2nd turn same terrain configuration, same distress a KHD ninja was near the first ADH one : too far from haidao or anyone in the fireteam. He stand up for glory taking his glorious 1 burst bow his mighty pistol and .. killed krit and finished the Haidao. Died on a chain colt 2x shoot. but hey he did his job.
    - My Domaru send his grift E/M isolated one of the fireteam. Well The game was already over I struggle so much that I had no orders left for objectives.

    I think Lu Duan had the most chances to be successful but I had no luck. And if Ruishi wasn't out before my first turn I think my odd would have been way better. But I think I touched a big JSA problematic : how do we handle those kind of fireteam of the death : Varuna, IA, OSS and many other? Moreover, my friend move his fireteam on the central line so it was much easier for me. If his haidao was on his backline it should have been a nightmare.

    Personnaly I play Tohaa, Shasvastii and Dahshat. For these I know very well how to handle these kind of nuisance even by brute force. Zuyong fireteam with ruishi good range 5 dices 18. Zuyong Hmg 5 dices BS13. Sukuel Hmg in fireteam with a doctor. Sheskin, speculoo etc. But in JSA thinking to this I end with maybe a better solution (than having more luck on my dices .. even if my keisotsu ML putted on orbit a YanLuo on the first yujin orders :D)
    Here is a list of what I want to test in that kind of situations :

    - Shikami's nimbus + High burst in good range (ruishi, domaru spitfire, shikami under 20cm range...)
    - Coordinated order with something like ruishi/luduan in spearhead with 3 tanko firing ML or Flammenspeer or blitzen. One of them will be lucky and have early retirement but things should be done.
    - Lu duan or Ruishi with mms l2 within good range
    - More tricky : anticipating were the sniper will take place and give him a friendly babysitter like Kitsune or one oniwaban. If the placement guess fail or the Superior infiltration fail it's over.
    - Karakuri might last a little longer than other troopers in front of the Multi sniper so it might help.
    - 5 men fireteam with a tanko ML ? 16 v 16 russian roulette style ?

    have I miss a solution or do you have some more ideas ?

    btw It a shame that no one else than shikami at 45 pts has nimbus grenades ^^
     
    #8 Aemaru, Dec 8, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
  9. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    Ok, there's a lot to unpack here... but first things first: Aragoto - fantastic miniatures, the spitfire one is gorgeous, put them for show in your room - don't play them.

    Between the Lu Duan and the Ruishi I almost always take Ruishi, but never both. Anyway, with Lu Duan's Holoprojector LV2 you should have enough decoys to get close to the fireteam and put a Heavy Flamethrower template on them: they shoot back? They need to save vs Fire. They Dodge? They need to roll for Dodge first. They do a bunch of mixed stuff? Fireteam gets smaller. Lu Duan's also a repeater, so the AHD Ninja can act through the bot, in safety. Karakuri can also employ this with her Chain Rifle.

    Close Combat is never going to take 1 order, if it does, awesome! But that needs a lot of things to come together. That said, against Zuyongs I agree that you should've absolutely attempted to CC them, with the KHD Ninja, so if it goes wrong you lose 29 points. Not the end of the world.

    Domaru's E/M grenades are very frightening and if you tuck on Domaru on Fireteams, they can throw them at pretty disgusting numbers. One on 11s (in good range) in Speculative fire, or 2 on... 17s-20s if you have LoF.

    That's about if for medium-short range coverage. Now onto the main question, which is: dealing with those pieces from afar.
    And yes, JSA won't have an easy time on long-range coverage, that's one of the weaknesses from the army in terms of weapon loadouts.
    There's a few things you can attempt:
    - Try a superior infiltration roll with an Oniwaban, so that you can blow the face of the sniper off, if you're using the BSG Oniwaban, you might even get a few other members of the link team. You can think of the Superior Infiltrators as your "long-range" pieces.
    - A Coordinated Order with Missile Launchers (Keisotsu, Tanko), Panzerfausts (Yuriko, Daiyokai), Heavy Rocket Launchers (Ryuken-9), because these three are your real long-range weapons. The only Sniper in the Army is the Ninja which isn't that great. You'll probably lose some troops in the process, but if you can land a Missile template or a Panzerfaust, then their chances of survival are very slim.
    - A Keisotsu HMG...I mean... if you have the points for an Aragoto Spitfire, you most assuredly have the points for a Keisotsu HMG. He can pull some work with 5 dice on 13s... in this scenario they would be against 16s but then again it's 5 dice vs 2, you have 40% chance of inflicting one wound on the Haidao, not brilliant but it's better than that Aragoto, for sure.
    - Karakuris can brute force her way into optimal ranges.

    For the most part, long range pieces on overwatch are a huge pain for JSA and need to be dealt with unconventional means until you get to the 24'' range band.

    Other deliberations:
    Your opponent prepped heavily against Hacking, but the AHD Ninja, still made IA spend an order for Fairy Dust, from there not trying to engage in CC with either Ninja I think was a missed opportunity. But still, ask yourself if an Oniwaban BSG would've been a better fit, since you're already taking the KHD Ninja, for the console grabbing and maiming of opposing hackers.
    Domaru could've rushed forward more aggressively and even attempt some Speculative Fire grenades. Berserk gives you access to Assault which is Move+Move+CC in one entire order. No fireteam wants an enemy Domaru hanging about.
    A double missile launcher Tanko + Musashi Haris could be a good way to fight against these types of fireteams.
    Other people will say that Shikami only works in dense tables and it's not order efficient, but I like that profile a lot and it can certainly help having a Specialist Operative with Nimbus Grenades and Assault Pistol for midtable CQC.

    Other than that, keep trying and experimenting. JSA is certainly difficult to master since it's an Army that plays like no other in all of Infinity.
     
    #9 Ashtaroth, Dec 9, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
    Xeurian likes this.
  10. Tongfa

    Tongfa proudly selling out since 1991

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    now that is some ivy league thinking
     
  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I really disagree with that.

    Make no mistake, Aragoto are NOT easy to learn to use, much harder than learning how to get Domaru into CC.

    I really recommend throwing down with the full 'Bousouzoku' (Nihon-go for 'biker gang') list until you figure out how to make them work. You will lose a hell of a lot of games in the process, but don't let that discourage you. But properly used Aragoto are incredible.

    Bousousoku
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]6
    KUROSHI RIDER Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Breaker Pistol, AP + Shock CCW. (0 | 33)
    ARAGOTO Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 26)
    ARAGOTO Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 26)
    ARAGOTO (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    ARAGOTO Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 28)
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)

    2.5 SWC | 159 Points

    You can swap hackers around, two KHDs if you just want the specialists (or have Nomads to deal with), one of each is probably better all-around for tournaments, and dual AHDs if you're facing a lot of HI without too much KHD threat.

    And it's only 160 points, so you can stuff a lot of extras into that list.
     
  12. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    Shikami nimbus + Karakuri driving forward might be terrifying. 8" movement, maximum 1 dice ARO, and you save on 10s. In the Asteroid Blues campaign there was a tale of a Karakuri haris that just kept going, Terminator style, until they could unleash a Domaru into a back line...