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New Morats in Vanilla CA

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by Hachiman Taro, Mar 26, 2022.

  1. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    What do we think in new Morats benefits (or hurts) Vanilla CA?
     
  2. Erbent

    Erbent Well-Known Member

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    So far it seems the old units are mostly unchanged, except the zerat, which I'm torn on between being a minor nerf or a sidegrade: I occasionaly used red fury with mines as a back-up gunfighter, and the multi-marksman feels less good with only 3 dice, but a +1 dzm and +1B combi seems like a nice alternative, though it really depends on the table density and DTWs are all over thd place nowdays. Another loadout I used a few times was thd minelayer, combi+light flamethrower was better for defence because tanking flamers is less reliable, but a boarding shotgun is better offensively so it's pretty nice still, snd 1 point cheaper as well.

    On the new units it's mostly thd case of good in sectorial, meh in vanilla with the only exception being rindak, which is an sbsolutely amazing addition to our midfield game, being a paramedic wigh +1B medikit and not being made of thin paper like all our other options cor healing wounds, the only way it could be better is if CB slapped mimetism on top of it, but that would be just silly broken, will definitely pair up this monke robot with caliban engineer in most of my lists.
     
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  3. Metal730

    Metal730 Well-Known Member
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    Agreed on both points! I'd add that the Dartok is badass in vanilla. I think better even than bit & kiss. Similar stat lime and cost for veteran, dogged and + trinity damage. No cybermask but full utility from an HD.

    There's also a really interesting duo with Raicho & Kurgat in vanilla which I'm kinda salty didn't make it into MAF!
     
  4. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Notice the Rindak Dodges at 16 and forces a -3 on the opponent, so if he dodges he's got a better version of mimetism going for him, which is something he will be doing a lot if he's going solo. Not bad, but expensive. I do like the idea of pairing him with a Caliban engineer and leaving the worm at home though.

    I would say Zabuks make for a good cheerleader option and the Bultrak can be used in Vanilla as well as it can be used in sectorial, so yeah, not bad additions.

    The truth is CA is so strong right now that the proportionate buff it got was minimal. Some useful stuff, but nothing we couldn't do already.
     
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  5. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Agree but the extra burst on the Pitchers is a big deal for Bit + Kiss. Depends how you want to use it I guess.
     
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  6. Philamilapeed

    Philamilapeed Totally not a Speculo

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    I think I like the idea of Kaitok CR + Flammenspeer or HRL as a turret for Vanilla. It's cheaper than a TR bot and the former profile a real menace on the offense if you can go first and move it up to the midfield. Even if it just stays in your DZ all game, it's a very tough piece that'll likely take multiple order to put down, and give you a positive order trade.
     
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  7. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Vanilla picked up some good shit. I agree with the poster who said, essentially, because vanilla is so good already the overall change is not as major. But yes, one of the best factions in the game got meaningfully better.
    • Dartok is like a bad Jazz, and a bad Jazz is a very playable unit. At its best in MAF where it can get free movement in a team, but could have game in a hacking heavy list.
    • Kurgat is a legitimate profile to consider. We tend to only want to engineer, as everything else is either cheap or regenerating or infiltrated or otherwise not worth it. I've seen a friend of mine religiously use the monstrukker, spending surplus orders on random drop bears and being annoying, to know that this is a meaningful change to the profile. That said, I think Doctor Worm or the next unit are probably still generally better
    • Nexus Engineer NCO: The main thing is NCO, but better dodging and a solid defense weapon are real upgrades too. Lists with a useless LT order but an engineer target (looking at you, every single sphinx list) will want to consider him.
    • Kaitok Flammenspear: The kaitok is a great speedbump. He will absorb a few orders and then either die (he's cheap as so not so bad) or just live because he's tough as hell. If he lives (and especially if he frenzied for extra movement) he can go run into the midfield and be a template speedbump. I agree 100% with the above poster that this guy is solid as. I don't like the HRL as much because if I have 1.5 SWC available for defense I'm still going to prioritize a noctifier.
    • Suryat HRL Firewall: A minor upgrade in that this guy got even more difficult to hack. I don't see these often but I do see them and now they are better.
    • Rindak: I'm torn on these. I expect them to be quite good. Skirmisher v. skirmisher is a shitshow and they are kitted out to crush in that area. They can effectively dodge or tank mines, tank ARO templates, climb up to get people, sensor the bastards and then take them down with effective CQB equipment. The Blitzen+1 is a really silly thing for him to just pop out of a window and unleash on a target. However, no marker and no mimetism is definitely a downer. And for all their ability to kill other skirmishers, they are also not particularly difficult for another skirmisher to kill themselves if they can get effective line of fire on them.
    • Tyrok: Not quite new release but still new enough that I have not run them. I'm not the biggest fan honestly. I feel like they are tooled up for fighting dumb but durable units, but the other inhabitants of the midfield are evasive and squishy. I would run the one with the Skurgot in vanilla but I can't justify the others.
    • Bultrak: It overlaps so hard with the Raicho, so if you like Raicho you'll probably like this, and if you don't like Raicho you probably won't. I imagine B5 BS13 is a little better than B4 BS14 so it shoots a little better and the smaller sil is a point of difference. But ultimately they'll do the same thing.
    • Zabuk: In very specific situations this is a good corner guard. Namely against something big and dumb that is scared of glue, but not of taking a single chain hit. I think that will not come up enough to justify taking over a Datz.
    • Zerat: Lost red fury, which I sometimes took. Gained B4 combi and marksman profiles. Generally not a fan honestly. Same issues as before - scoring profiles lack marker which is more important than -6. The combi only really has range for midfield fighting which it is not going to be good at. The marksman might be ok but I find it hard to consider it for 1 SWC. I know some other people like the Zerat but for me personally not so much and less so after the changes.
     
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  8. Lesh'

    Lesh' Infinity LATVIA
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    I'm a bit sad that tyrok lost berserk both on him and skurgot. Sure he's still good at melee, but to me it seems really difficult to justify including him while he doesn't have camo, doesn't have template. and with BS11 good luck killing anything.
    Minelayer loadout is interesting though.
     
  9. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    I've had a Tyrok kill about 6 models in a game, without using berserk. Not counting 2 lucky kills with supressive fire, the other four where all abusing B2 CC26

    Don't underestimate the ability of using B2 with the Heavy Pistols, it really helps killing low wound models without CC skills
     
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  10. Paperclip

    Paperclip Active Member

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    Am I the only one that is excited for autocannon bultrak? Obviously don't have him go up against any mimetic gunfighters but the ap exp ammo of bultrak should outweigh the hrmc
     
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  11. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    It's an interesting tradeoff - the HRMC is going to be more reliable at winning FtF rolls, but the autocannon definitely packs a punch.

    My dice calc is in a sad state at the moment, but I'll probably spend some time comparing the two weapons to get a feel for which is better in what scenarios.
     
  12. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I ran some numbers. Could easily be mistakes in the data entry so take with a grain of salt.

    Numbers are attacker deals damage % chance - defender deals damage % chance.
    All firefights are in +3 range for both units and cover for both units


    VS Fusilier Combi, both in good range (somehow):
    HRMC 74-2 (46% for two wounds)
    AUTO 74-3 (64% for 2+ wounds)

    VS Orc HMG, full mixed link, good range:
    HRMC 44-12 (21% for two wounds, 7% for three wounds)
    AUTO 41-16 (29% for two wounds, 16% for three wounds)

    VS Kamau MULTI, full mixed link, good range:
    HRMC 38-24 (18% for two wounds)
    AUTO 34-31 (28% for two wounds)

    VS Squalo:
    HRMC 55-15 (20% two wounds, 9% three wounds)
    AUTO 58-20 (44% two wounds, 27% three wounds)

    I compared both loadouts against a vanilla line trooper combi, a full mixed link HI HMG, a full mixed link Kamau, and a Squalo.

    There are three outcomes to a firefight that I was concerned with - attacker wins and deals 1 damage, attacker wins and deals multiple damage and attacker loses.

    The result: against all targets, you are slightly more likely to take damage using the autocannon. Against infantry, you are slightly more likely to deal 1 damage using the HRMC, but significantly more likely to deal 2+ damage with the autocannon.

    Against vanilla TAGs, the chances to deal 1, deal multiple, and recieve damage were higher with the autocannon, but the most significant difference was that there was a much higher chance of multiple damage and significant (27%) chance for insta-kill against a vanilla TAG.

    The target that favored the HRMC the most was linked HI, where the HRMC could apply it's armor piercing but before the target go so tough that multiple damage was very important.

    The target that favored the autocannon the most was a vanilla TAG, where it significantly outperformed the HRMC.

    ---

    The HRMC is safer but I like the autocannon more than I thought I would after running those numbers. I feel I would want to run the autocannon more than I would the HRMC in most lists.

    When the autocannon is worse than the HRMC, it is not much worse, often a few percentage points lower chance of a hit though it also raises your own chances of being hit by a very meaningful amount. As a proportion the risk is quite higher, often a quarter or third. When it is better, it is significantly better against certain targets because of the chance for multiple damage. Not to mention the more powerful ARO.

    This has a couple of effects. Not only can you 'get lucky' against a multi-wound target, but very significantly this matters because of the guts rule. You are a little less likely to spend orders moving to engage, hit them, have it bounce or do nonlethal damage, and them guts to safety or KO next to a medic. You trade a higher chance to recieve damage, to make your attacks more likely to completely remove the target, with very close overall 'success chances' to the HRMC. The difference against say, a Kamau, between knocking it out or gutsing it or killing it is pretty massive.

    Both Bultraks are an effective choice to attack weak troops, ARO Heavies, and standard TAGs. The Autocannon is also remarkably effective at fighting standard TAGs, possibly the strongest choice in the game for simply shooting them. Unsurprisingly, against a good gunfighter with mimetism both platforms were not all that great, though they can attempt the job with at least positive odds. The HRMC is more likely to suppress a Kamau by KO or guts, but the autocannon is more likely to get it the fuck out of the game if it succeeds - at the cost of being barely better than even odds against it.

    TLDR: Autocannon is about equal to deal damage, way higher to deal lots of damage, and significantly higher to receive damage if you are unsuccessful. It also dumpsters standard TAGs really hard.
     
    #12 WiT?, Mar 28, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2022
  13. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Thanks for the analysis - do you have a link to how you generated those numbers? I'm playing with it some currently and coming up with slightly different results.
     
  14. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Nah man didnt even know that was a feature. Would not be surprised if there are data entry errors in these calculations just hope they are not too far off!
     
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  15. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    One thing I notice often when talking Infinity with people is how often people forget PUNCHING THE EVERLOVING FUCK out of someone is a valid tactic.

    Bultrak is pretty capable of smashing someone's mouth in if they aren't packing MA skills. Tyrok can do that EVEN if they have MA skills. Mimetism doesn't protect someone from getting their teeth punched in by an angry monkey, and Dogged allows the Tyrok to eat one template before going down swinging. It works, and I specially like it against expensive midfield units with mimetism-6.

    I think the Rindak is a natural evolution of that same thought process. Sure, it can't punch that well, but it can dodge at 16 and dodging into CC to start the old punching contest puts it at better odds than firing off his SMG or heavy pistol. And if you've got a shotgun, then his ARM and NWI+shock immunity allow him to safely try to tank one hit while hitting back himself.
     
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  16. Skjarr

    Skjarr EI Mouthpiece

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    Absolutely. I get quite a few kills with my Daturazi. They aren't there as corner guards or smoke throwers primarily, I aim to get them into combat.
     
  17. Iro

    Iro Unidron, Dron, Dron, saca los cuernos al Sol~~

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    What's your thoughs about Rindak?
    I feel is quite potent in Vainilla due to R2 Medikit forward deployment +20cm with "2 EST" with loads of abilities focused on Midfield (such as Dodge +3, Dodge + Movement, Sensor...)
    What's your election in profiles?
    I feel that the R4 Multi-Rifle is the safest, besides that being the most expensive one.
    This is the unit that hype me the most in Vainilla.
     
  18. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I haven't taken a Rindak yet, but man I am looking forward to shredding skirmishers with a FD one. He also looks solid for the many missions where a hidden deployment skirmisher appears at the end to win the game - he can tap buttons, then find this guy and blast him.

    I really like all FD profiles for vanilla. The MULTI Rifle is a big step up in firepower over an SMG or shotgun for many situations. The Shotgun defends itself (really important for non-marker midfielder) and the B2 blitzen is a one and done trick that can really mess with things. And the SMG is cheap, though I consider it a big step down from the others.

    However, I think this guy is a specialist choice and won't make it to every list. He will go in my anti-camo list, or in lists designed for certain skirmisher heavy missions. Maybe that will be a mistake and he'll be an autoinclude but that is where I am starting with it.
     
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  19. Metal730

    Metal730 Well-Known Member
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    Because he's only bs 12 I'd probably go for the BSG, especially if I want him to hunt camo. He's starting close with climbing + and the +6 really helps in ftf rolls vs dodging skirmishers. The template and NWI means he can trade vs templates. Even though b4 on the multi rifle is really good at face value, I don't like the potential situation where I'm b4 on 9s vs a shotgun shot on a 14. It also gives him a great tool to murder mim -6 models with hidden deployment.
     
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  20. Iro

    Iro Unidron, Dron, Dron, saca los cuernos al Sol~~

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    Im not sure about what is best for vainilla combo with Eng Caliban. On my mind is R4 Multi cuz I have a problem with long distances in my lists (Thus I carry double impersonation and SWC is high... haha) and this is a potentially 90cms of good range.
    I need so hard to test it in my games!
     
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