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New models gamedesign

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Ktulhuist09, Aug 24, 2022.

  1. tacos

    tacos Member

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    I was under the impression that Vanilla Haqq was one of the stronger factions in the game at the moment - not busted op, but also not in dire need of buffs. I absolutely could be wrong tho, I shouldn't have spoken as authoritatively.

    I guess I can see the argument about Zulekya having a better toolkit than Zamira with her B2 LFT, but idk if I'd agree that either are fantastic tool kit units - afaik, when you are taking one, it's normally to use as a guided missile to take out something big, and I think it's fair to say that Zamira is better at that right now, and from what I understood Zulekya was more or less an auto-take beforehand.

    I do agree that part of the balance is Haqq having a lot of quality irregulars that you have to balance with regulars, but even in the pantheon of Haqq irregulars, Zamira (and Zulekya still I guess) seem hard to compete with.

    I'm also not sure if Zamira is comparable to Morlocks. Both are warbands with E/M CCWs, but Morlocks are significantly slower barring a good metachem roll, don't have a mulligan with dogged barring a good metachem roll, and have to win the FTF once they get there. It just seems more order intensive and with more potential points of failure.
     
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  2. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    These sorts of overstatements make it very difficult to take your complaints seriously.
     
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  3. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. I am a little defensive because of the constant pile-on of Nomads and my concerned that it starting being aimed at Haqqislam as well. Haqqislam (like Nomads) is a fun army with a lot of options, but if you look into historic ITS information, they have been consistently middle of the pack for years competitively. N4 gave them a lot of new tools and buffed their shooting capability dramatically, so I am hopeful it will be our time to shine.

    With the current iteration of Zamira, she now has the function to be a guided missile that can deliver a berserk Dam 14 E/M CCW. Zulekya, on the other hand, has the ability to toast link teams with a burst 2 light flamethrower, shoot burst 4 breaker pistols, or also close combat with burst 2 Explosive CCW/ Burst 3 Breaker pistols. Zulekya is very flexible, which is one of the reasons she is considered strong. Zamira is now comparable, but Zulekya still has a lot of value.

    The morlock and taigha examples were more that other WBs have had similar (though inferior) capabilities for cheaper for a long time. I also feel that people are not taking in account of difficult it can be to maneuver S4 models into place. I agree that Zulekya's combination is unique, but in general is not as OP as some other posters believe. But I think time and play will tell.
     
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  4. Ktulhuist09

    Ktulhuist09 Well-Known Member

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    If you cant understand what difference beetwen a model for 6 pts with random bonuses and biker with memirism, dogged with shock immunity and berserk, how can I prove something to you?
    How can you compare Zamira with taigha? Taigha just has a DA, it's even not close to e/m. DA not make your model isolated and dont split armor.
    May be in your magic world players choose beetwen broken models in my meta haq players just take both sisters in roster)
    I understand thats you are enjoy new stuff and I criticize CB, not you. Example with avatar that had a remote presence by mistake for 2 years or daylami who had a equal cost on profile with infiltration+camo and profile without anything for half of year, just show us that CB dont have time even to check their own builder. I start this thread to collect with help of other players all examples of bad ideas in a ghostly hope that it will be noticed by someone in cb. But mostly we just arguing here with each other even without any arguments)
     
  5. Kwisatz Haderach

    Kwisatz Haderach Zelenograd Shasvastii
    Warcor

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    Problem with Zamira is that’s it’s a Dogged Immunity Shock platform with 14 inch move and smoke. With Berserk and E/M CCW.
    She can take a mine to the face with no problem…….. it’s not hackable. So I personally don’t understand how you suppose to stop that roaming beastie, except for MSV linked ARO.
    E/M CCW should be changed for anything else, it’s stupidly strong on 14 inch berserk model.
    Close to that is Domaru, but he is slower, Hackable, don’t have smoke.
    E/M CCW is the strongest CCW in the game right now.
     
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  6. Rejnhard

    Rejnhard Well-Known Member

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    And quite confusing. I remember looking it up like 3 times and by now I'm again unsure exactly how it works. Is it two rolls against BTS (halved?) and any fail is both a wound and Oblivion+Carbonite?. I guess if someone is using the stuff regularly it's no problem to remember. but if one doesn't...
    I sure hope they rework it both for balance and clarity sake.
     
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  7. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Easiest way to remember it for me is that it adds the effect of Normal ammo to E/M

    So it works the same as any other E/M weapon, with the added effect that a failed saving roll causes a Wound.
     
  8. tacos

    tacos Member

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    That's fair, I can see those arguments for Zulekya as more versatile - I've seen some people talk about running both sisters at once, which sounds pretty strong. I do think that time will tell, but I am def on the side of Zamira getting berserk being too much. I guess it is table dependent and you could do stuff like body blocking with cheap warbands? I also guess that if you have your big units protected by marker states that helps, but that's far from a universal luxury.
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, whether Zamira is too strong or not depends on the table's and the players' ability to get that huge base across the table. In N4 I've been having issues with stuff that's got huge bases and lower ARM than brain cells so I'm not all that worried as someone without access to them. Taighas are scary not because of their CCW but because they have good abilities and are small. Not everything is about the punching power so much as actually getting to use it!
     
  10. SpectralOwl

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    It's not as hard as I'd like to get within "14. That's almost a Combi Rifle's good range, and LoS for Berserk is much easier to get in N4 with Dodge movement. Zamira could easily hide behind any decently sized building at the midline and threaten the front of the DZ, where most actual shooting AROs are positioned unless sniper nests are available, with a simple Move-Dodge into Berserk. A decently-saturated midfield of Camo Markers or some even cheaper Warbands might be able to stop the play or trade up, but as a primarily NCA player this narrows my options even further when it comes to preventing crippling alpha strikes- and from Haqq to boot, which already excels at destroying key defensive pieces with Impersonators and recently got the buffed Zhayedan HMG to easily clear cheaper shooting AROs. Not a fan.
     
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  11. P4ela154

    P4ela154 Active Member

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    Playing with free bikes has never experienced any problems with moving. On the contrary, due to the long movement, there was a huge saving of orders for the delivery of redfure to the enemy DZ.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but the Red Fury didn't need or want to get into the 8" range band, it wanted to stay 8 to 24" away from the opponent and together with being able to claim cover this made the MBH Red Fury almost a no-brainer. It was still able to do its job -effectively- if it was forced to cut an 8" movement 3" short because there was no room to place the 55mm base, and at a longer range. (and if they can claim cover, I think MBHs will be auto-include territory for this reason - even if not free anymore)
    I think the bigger question is whether the profile is accurately priced as the price is smack dead central for Units-More-Accurately-Called-Human-Shields. The fact that she's got Dogged and Shock Immunity is a bigger concern for me than the effect of a potential charge. This follows the trend of putting Shock Immunity on everything that a player would want to shoot with Shock ammo (and is probably a result of shock ammo being absolutely everywhere). Good effect and with staying power is typically something you'll have to go to 20+ to find.
     
  13. Rejnhard

    Rejnhard Well-Known Member

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    True. If she was realistically threatened by a single mine, then I think she would seem much less scary while still good. Dogged+shock immune combo on a homing missile is very potent.
     
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  14. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Given her high Dodge and PH, she can clear any obstacle with a successful Dodge and be set up for a direct Berserk. All she needs is a clear sub-14” route, not hard on any table really, especially if she’s flanking.

    This profile is definitely undercosted for what it is. It’s a trade piece, needs to be at least Yojimbo levels of expense, probably higher given Berserk. 18-20 points would be right.

    [EDIT: A trade piece with very, very low order investment required, no less.]
     
    #134 Savnock, Sep 27, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2022
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I was honestly thinking more along the lines of how well she'd handle a Shock Marksman Rifle or similar AROing her from Hidden Deployment or otherwise more than about mines.

    Speaking of other miniatures that's honestly very cheap for what they actually bring to the table, Yojimbo :p

    Anyway, I think there's a sub discussion to be had about how some abilities synergises with others and how, in general, a large amount of disparate abilities skornergises. Berserk definitely synergises heavily with MOV, but I'm not sure whether in this case it's a matter of points. I mean, I am not sure if a huge ass melee base is as dangerous as the numbers suggest in practice once planters, unconscious troopers and general debris has had theirs to say.

    That is also a way everyone can do to mitigate her if they feel she's too good. Bring more trash bins to limit space where they can move a bit. Bring more planters and fountains to make local terrain rules that'll force larger bases take a bit more time and a bit more ARO. Bring more holo-ads and climbing ivy to make them take disadvantaged AROs. Ladders and 25mm walk ways.
     
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  16. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    One more reason to hide everything good up high!
     
  17. Rejnhard

    Rejnhard Well-Known Member

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    zamira.png
     

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  18. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Thinking about it further, all that's really needed to bring Zamira back into balance is to strip the Shock Immunity off of her. Still a deadly missile that's very difficult to stop, can still Dodge mines pretty easily, but would be actually vulnerable to Shock ammo Hidden troops and Supp Fire that could stop her before she hits her target, and mines have some small deterrent effect.

    Without that, agreed with previous posters that counterplay against this unit seems almost impossible, other than keeping your highest-value troops on rooftops the whole game.
     
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  19. Gwynbleidd

    Gwynbleidd Non asto coram malo

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    I’m away for two minutes and haqqi gets a buff that scares an avatar up a building…
     
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  20. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Sadly it seems like 2 minutes might be longer than the amount of time anyone playtested this crazy-powerful buff.

    Love ya CB, but this is a pretty big and easily-spotted mistake. It's gonna suck to see vanilla Haqq piece-trade absolutely any TAG, HI, or REM for 11 points and 2-3 orders.
     
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