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New Jujaks and Korean character

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Triumph, Jul 22, 2021.

  1. ldgif

    ldgif Well-Known Member
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    I never said pitcher strats weren’t reliable lol, just that they can fail.

    I still can’t help but notice you ignore certain points. How is someone getting free pitcher shots downfield against WBA? Where is your Long Ya or Hundun? Or are we playing sacrifice Gromez?

    How is taking out the Danavas not relevant but you getting a perfect situation to always take out my fireteam a perfect situation? Outside of B3 Oblivions it is not as easy to take out the SJ and can be quite order intensive.

    WhiteCo has better offensive hacking, but you have yet to even counter the claim I made of WBA having better defensive hacking. You decided to attack it and me instead of simply proving WhiteCo has a better defensive hacking game. It is almost like some fusiliers and Gromez with a -3 don’t compare..

    Again you love hyperbole, this whole conversation started simply because I said WhiteCo is not just a better WBA.

    You keep exaggerating my claims unfairly which isn’t cool either.

    WBA has a large amount of AP. It is a fact, can’t help but notice you don’t argue that, is it because of the maths? The game has changed and even MRs and breaker combis are effective against TAGs.

    WBA has one of the best defensive hacking fireteams in the game, can you defuse it? Yes, but does anyone else have access to a -6 tinbot in a fireteam with a bunch of hackers?
    Again find me a better defensive hacking fireteam or notice that WBA is packing some sort of AP in 2/3rds of its profiles.

    Edited to be less personal, even if Triumph is being dismissive of me, I have no right to nit-pick and be dismissive of him.

    I generally value your insight Triumph for a lot of gameplay mechanics and strats, I just think at times you tend to repeat some of the same annoyances in the game in every thread.
     
    #101 ldgif, Jul 24, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  2. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    As far as defensive hacking networks go, you can look right back at White Company again. With two Guilangs and 3 Fugazis, they can already cover most of their side of the board with repeaters at deployment. Then they get Peacemakers on top of that.
    The Jujak actually gets fireteam options here, and can link its tinbot b with Valerya, and get that Danavas on the side for independent AROs. You could fit additional hackers into the link with Valerya, but White Banner gets better options on top of that to throw in there, like linked MSV2 Haidao with smoke coverage.
     
  3. ldgif

    ldgif Well-Known Member
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    No doubt WhiteCo has the better network, and I am indeed jealous of the large berth of options Jujaks get in WhiteCo. (Even though I also play WhiteCo lol).

    I am always wary of solo hackers as a defensive hacking tool because of how they can be picked apart one by one, but after doing some quick map visuals it is quite obvious that WhiteCo can literally blanket the field in a repeater blanket making that point moot.

    I guess WBA hacking advantages is the option of the Daofei Hacker, Hack Squad, and Ye Mao? Hah pretty meek.

    Like I get the Hack squad is inferior to Nomads, DBS, and White Co, but it holds its own against a majority of the factions in the game.

    I do want to run some simulations of the Danavas/Mary Problems vs Hack Squad to see if there are some strategies in breaking away a few that could lead to an order drain on the offensive Hacker.
     
    #103 ldgif, Jul 24, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  4. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    What kind of inane point is that to try make? Statistically I could literally roll nothing but 1s the entire game. That isn't relevant to anything.


    In many cases the advance comes from behind smoke until Gromoz is able to slice a position from cover to drop a pitcher where she wants. If you have Long Ya watching long fire lanes that would impede this, they're probably dead. MSV2 Haidao already shot them through smoke.

    If you have a Hundun that can interrupt her trying to place the pitcher she has a couple of options
    • Suicide for the pitcher. Risks about 45% chance to die in the process.
    • Dodge. In this case she's 66% to survive, after which the Haidao deletes the Hundun with trivial ease
    So I as the Yu Jing player I am left with the question, are those odds worth bringing a Hundun out for given that no matter what happens I will lose it straight after? Alternatively I let the hacking attempts proceed and I save the Hundun to slow movement for more turns and see if I have the opportunity if my opponent needs to rush some movement to hit multiple units rather than just Valerya by herself. Or maybe I think their hacking attempts will consume too many orders based on combat group composition and will leave the link over extended for a counter attack with a different unit.

    There isn't a correct answer there. That's all dependent on lists, what they're trying to hack of mine, how important it is, how many other live resources I have to attack with. No matter which way both players choose to proceed, there is a decent statistical chance that Valerya ends up putting pitchers down to hack things.


    Because the Danavas isn't fucking up the list by consuming a third of the available SWC and making the core link, an asset, extremely vulnerable to getting shattered and gutting your order count. Your stupid meme fireteam you're shilling is both a huge opportunity cost as well as a liability. That's why.

    I didn't think it was necessary to prove that WhiteCo has access to the exact same tools as White Banner being able to project hacking devices attached to Tinbots of both -3 and -6 variety through different forward deploying repeaters. I thought that was both obvious and unnecessary to go over, and that this statement needed a focused addressing

    "The Hack squad of WBA may not look impressive, but it literally smacks any offensive hacker in the game."

    Because it's totally wrong as already discussed.

    Yes? Corregidor, StarCo, Dahshat, WhiteCo, Bakunin all off the top of my head. Shit anybody who can get a Brigada even an AVA1 like QK does gets access to a hacker that comes with its own -6 Tinbot. CJC can have Jazz defensively hack at the same time her linked Brigada hacks without running into the issue the Shang Ji has with being unable to ARO.

    You know what you're overlooking as well in your search for Tinbots? Veteran hackers with a decent BTS stat. ForCo for example can stick Bolts with Orcs to get a firewall and that makes them a right prick to remove. They're only WIP12 and they don't get the best Tinbot, but they're straight up immune to Oblivion and they're functionally BTS9 vs standard KHDs trying to remove them. Morats do a similar thing with all their hackers being Veteran. I actually came up against Morats in a tournament and couldn't deal with their hackers efficiently to get a spotlight off, so I ended abandoning the idea of spotlighting their shit and started chasing things down with Forward Observers instead to get my Missiles firing.


    Because you are significantly over valuing a multitude of random backup and plan B weapons like rifles and shotguns or disposable gear like mines and panzerfausts with AP traits over actual fireteam pointmen with big expensive guns and the order economy to put them to work. Again, nobody gives much of a shit if your sectorial has 20 different options for AP mines and Multirifles, while on the other hand exactly 1 Avatar makes everyone pay the fuck attention.


    We've already covered more sane options but I'll even throw you a bone here and rather offer you a more competitively designed fireteam, I'll offer you a better version of your dumb meme fireteam. Spoilers, Corregidor does it better.


    JAZZ FTO (Hacker, Number 2) Submachine Gun, Pitcher, Cybermines / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 19)
    ALGUACIL (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 15)
    ALGUACIL (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 15)
    ALGUACIL (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 15)
    MOBILE BRIGADA (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, D-Charges ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 39)

    2.5 SWC | 103 Points

    There you go, 5 linked hackers including the -6 Tinbot so you don't have fireteam integrity issues with ARO declaration.

    It's also a terrible use of SWC and I wouldn't recommend running it either but there it is.
     
    #104 Triumph, Jul 24, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  5. ldgif

    ldgif Well-Known Member
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    I think I am going to need a burn heal after this one.

    There are a few things that I can nitpick like some of the Sectorials you listed do lack a -6 tinbot in a cheap hacker fireteam, or that somehow WBA is “weak” AP wise when it packs 3 B5 AP options on differing platforms. I don’t think these things really matter though.

    Veteran hackers are actually pretty commendable now, and makes the Securitate Hacker even worth looking at.

    The High BTS stat makes sense too, its a shame Ye Mao can’t be paired with any of our -6s because that would be sweet and comparative to Bolts aside to being vulnerable to Oblivion.

    As much as that Corgi team is a meme, that is quite beautiful if nonsensical. The value of getting that Tinbot on the hacker completely makes sense.

    Regardless of everything else, this really makes me realize the inefficiency of the Hack Squad, and my desperation in defending it especially as someone who plays some superior hacking armies. (WhiteCo + TJC)

    I’ll pick your brain as this ends in my humble defeat, would you say it is more optimal to just bring 1 Zhanshi HD with Shang-Jisus just to get a little more value of the tinbot or better to just avoid them? Or even better examples of Core Fireteams you take/prefer in WBA?

    My new desperation will be that somehow this new char helps out WBA jujaks use-ability, even if linking that to a Char is kinda meh design.
     
    #105 ldgif, Jul 24, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    What? Yes they can. You can literally jam a Shang Ji in their link.


    One is fine, good even. Lots of them is bad because it's chewing up SWC that could be Hundun, Guilangs, Son Bae, and Long Ya. I mentioned this in the thread talking about White Banner at 400 points, one of the reasons the sectorial feels tough to build for is it wants to run so much more SWC than its allowed to at 300.

    The Zhanshi are the only core worth running in WB. I don't think Jujak cores are viable at 300, I don't even know if they're viable at 400 yet. Jujak cores actually have the whole Crusade fireteam problem where if 1 key model gets disabled it fucks up your whole fireteam and now you have 4 permanently unlinked Jujak. Shang Ji are obviously just too expensive to run a full link for.

    So that leaves Zhanshi. 1 Hacker is a good investment that turns on the potential for your repeaters, it now demands your opponent does something about them and gives you the option to threaten with a Son Bae if you want to incorporate that. 4 Hackers is an over investment that now allows your opponent to potentially use 1 pitcher to screw over the source of 6 of your orders and more than half your SWC. Hell if they have a good turn you could potentially lose everything there. It's a too many eggs in one basket situation.

    With that said White Banner is analogous to SEF, it's a sectorial that can justify not playing a core and still function with a multitude of solo operators. The only issue with this is not running a fireteam is that it can feel very samey and potentially just inferior Vanilla.

    The Ye Mao haris is solid though, actually low key very scary provided you can keep it alive. See the hacking thread in this forum for what rules they can abuse with MSV.
     
  7. ldgif

    ldgif Well-Known Member
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    Duh forget the SJ can join the Ye-Mao. Was kinda just wishing the Jujak could mix with them ala Kaplans in WC lol

    Do you value the 2 SJ 3 Jujak core? Or just too expensive?

    I can see that, I just value the Zhanshi+SJ core as more of an order battery than anything else.

    Do you like pure Ye Mao Haris or mixing in with various Wildcards?
     
  8. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    Ok, seriously, guys. @ldgif @Triumph

    If you want to talk about Yu Jing Hacking, that's fine, but could you kindly do it in another, more relevant thread?

    It's been almost a solid page of it and the thread is supposed to be about the new Jujaks/Jujak character/other Jujak related things.
     
  9. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    It's like a 170 point link, it just costs too much. If you could spear head it with some insanity level point man like Vostok or something... maybe. But for BS13 no visors no mimetism no % MOD adjusting burst bonuses or anything crazy it's just too much IMO.

    The hacker and some kind of tinbot go together really well, the Ye Mao hacker is the money maker as it can force normal rolls against opponents it's just a question of how much you want to invest in it and I don't really think there's a single correct answer there. I wish they could find their way into some kind of Jujak tinbot to increase flexibility their options to slim the link down if you wanted but at the end of the day the Shang Ji works ok, I also wish the Tian Gou 2nd section could wildcard into them because tossing in perimeter weapons would increase the amount of terrible options they can inflict on people when abusing smoke.



    [​IMG]

    Jokes aside there's not really much to talk about for the Jujaks until we get some profiles for So-Ra, the discussion around them kinda ran its course. We all know their link options are too restrictive and they need more options to be viable, common knowledge since N4 dropped really.
     
    Amusedbymuse likes this.
  10. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Going to throw in my wish list here.

    Fireteam Core: Jujak, Zhanshi (AVA total!), Ye Mao
    Fireteam Haris: Jujak, Ye Mao, Shaolin
    Fireteam Duo: Jujak, Ye Mao, Shaolin, Blue Wolf, Guijia
    Wildcards: Adil Mehmut, Jing Qo, Lei Gong, Liang Kai, Mech-Engineer, Qaing Gao, Shang Ji, Son Bae, Tian Gou (up to 1)
    Fireteam Special: Up to 1 Rui Shi may join any Jujak team, Up to 1 Weibing can join any Fireteam.

    The stars of the White Banner show should be the Jujak, Zhanshi, Shaolin and Ye Mao. The natives of Huang Di.

    Also in line with some of the WB theme is to add Terrain total to some REM.
     
  11. Fed4ykin

    Fed4ykin Well-Known Member

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    And I thought the daofei was the/one star of white banner. I know the fluff still has them as part of the Invincible Army...
     
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  12. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I kinda meant of Fireteams. Of individual I would have said Guilang before Daofei but now I do think of him as WB.
     
  13. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I'm over the change itself, I'm just sore about CB not even taking the 5 minutes to change the fluff about it.
     
  14. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    New character is probably going to have nco or tac awareness because what else even. Probably would replace Lei Gong then for card missions because order efficiency is valuable
    msv1+mimetism3 is another N4 new classic but wb is already msv1+mimetism: the sectorial so probably not

    daofei is overcosted and underperforming in n4 reality where 1w+nwi (i.e. 2w but better unless you are doing long range medkit shots) are the norm
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Pure speculation, but MSV2 wouldn't be too outlandish. CB has been putting more MSV units with particularly Marksman Rifles into the game, even in factions that traditionally do not have very strong MSV (with kind of predictable consequences).
    Whether that's good or bad I'm not really saying anything about, but I do think MSV2 is a strong possibility due to this.
     
  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    You know what we don't have and could really use? Smoke grenades on something that links.
     
  17. Amusedbymuse

    Amusedbymuse Well-Known Member

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    Eclipse. But ain't gonna happen.
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Aye. Smoke on a stable heavy infantry would be fantastic and first of its kind, I think. White Banner is kind of crap at utilizing smoke, though, in CB's continued design philosophy of making Yu Jing sectorials bad at the things that they say Yu Jing are good at.

    Note sure what White Banner could actually use, though. It's such a staple and "safe" design of a sectorial, you'd almost think it was the Yu Jing's oldest sectorial. Only thing I can think of that could possibly shake things up enough would be a Tinbot Firewall -9...
     
  19. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    Why? monks are a great warband

    you never abused monks+guilang minelayer?
     
  20. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Save smoke for the Crane (#vapecrane2021). Unlike ISS, WB has access to abundant, low committal smoke and doesn't need to rely on it as much.

    Jujak character needs something that will benefit the usability of the entire Jujak regiment. What she desperately does not need to be is something that wildcards into every other link while leaving the rest of her buddies behind to rot in your drawer of unpainted scrap.
     
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