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Needing some advice against Specfire lists

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Azuset, Dec 21, 2019.

  1. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    Peoples of the State Empire I require your knowledge.

    Today, I played against a Varuna list running a HGL that I didn't see coming. I lost the roll and was going second. I was playing a meme list. It was just for some fun. Having that said I didn't have a chance. I fired 2 or 3 shots total the whole 2 turns.

    The Squalo just spec fired my list down in 2 turns. was not able to shoot back. My dice where not on my side. I managed to pass 2 or 3 dodges. One was a crit dodge on a 4 for my Husong. I also only passed 1 or 2 armor saves. Those where not the odds. The varuna list was 2 combat groups with 12 orders + a data tracker order on the Squalo.

    I didn't have any ARO's out because he also had a 5 man linked Kamau with good visibility. I was setup to protect the objective with short fire lanes to the objective. We where playing capture and protect. I felt like I could have taken anything that was thrown my way except a good spec-fire platform.

    This feels a bit rock paper scissors to me when it pertains to list building.

    Aside from spreading out your troops what are ways to deal with this mechanic?

    I can see a speculo killer working well enough to slow it down.

    I can see a deployable repeater with an midfield AHD to make a repeater net on half of the board slowing it down.

    Perhaps a really lucky ninja hidden deployment that the squalo happens to walk over.

    Thanks!
     
  2. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Buying some new dice might help! (And perhaps melting down the old dice as a warning to the others):smiling_imp::laughing:


    But seriously, Squalo HGL is the most brutal Specfire list someone can take. BS15, HGL has a long +0 range, and only -6 for specfire means you're facing 9s while that stupid TAG rains death on you. And a :censored: MultiHMG for anything within Line of Sight.

    Spreading out is the safest option, don't have any models within 6" of each other because he can place the template off a model and catch anyone under the (120mm diameter) template. (I've done that a few times with a Wu Ming LGL in +3 range, great fun.)

    MSV2+smoke is a usable option, and you really want smoke anyways.

    Hac Tao is also an option. "You're BS15 and in +3 range for that MultiHMG? That's nice. I have TO camo, am in Cover, and am Surprise Shotting you for a total of -12. You need 6s, I need 17s."

    Camo'd Multisniper at really long range (32-48") works, too. "You're BS15 and in -3 range for either HGL or HMG. I have camo, am in cover, and am surprise-shotting you for a total of -12. You need 3s, I need 14s." (for a Guilang. 15s for a Daoying, 16s for that Intruder)

    The Oniwaban was the traditional answer to that problem, though post-Uprising that's not an option for YJ. Impersonators getting into CC will shut down the attack entirely, as you cannot SpecFire while in CC.

    TacJump or AD3+ will give that TAG an immediate threat, potentially in -3 range for the big guns.

    Also, Specfire is active-turn only, you can smoke to break LOS and move models up during your turn just fine, which is why you want smoke anyways.
     
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  3. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the tips. It was really rough. It kind of seems like its a luck thing other than spreading the models out. The squalo was deployed as a reserve trooper (obviously). So far, from all the brain storming I have done its not reasonable to try and build a list just to fight this setup.

    I feel like the squalo HGL + the 5 man linked Kamau is a great combo.

    Is it legal to specfire into windows? I dont see why not. I just have to ask.

    I had 2 flash bots, Lei Gong, and a Zyong Tinbot B in my first turn. The squalo beat Lei Gong in my atempt to use the blitzen on it. That was my only hope.
     
  4. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    - Spread your troops.
    - If you have some buildings with closed doors and windows, put the important stuff in there, they can't be targeted by spec fire if the room is closed.
    - Camo can't be directly targeted by spec-fire either, so camo spam works well, just make sure you don't have non camo stuff too close.
    - Combat jump are safe out of the board, and usually don't need much order to do their job which is nice in this situation, so it's a good option.
    - HIs are usually pretty good at soaking up the squalo's artillery barrage, thanks to multiple wounds and good PH to dodge.
    - Remotes have 2 unconscious state and will need one more grenade hit to be put down for good.
    - Make sure your doc and engie are not too juicy as a target, but are still close enough to what you really want to be healed. You're likely to have a lot of bodies left to heal, but much less orders to do so.

    and last but not least: Burn some incense and sacrifice a goat to the deity of your choice, 'cause you'll need a metric ton of karma. Spec fire as a mechanic is extremely dicey, it's basically like throwing orders in a slot machine. So yeah on average, with proper placement and average dice roll it's not that strong, but things can go either way extremely quickly.
     
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  5. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    Hahaha. You guys are a hoot. It looks I need to get new dice and some incense and a herd of goats.

    So, there is one of the blue boxes on the speculative fire page of the wiki. These blue boxes are also rules. This is what it has to say.

    Speculative Fin: Tactical Advice

    Speculative Fire with Template weapons can avoid MODS by Partial Cover, the CH Special Skill, ODD... by placing I the Template so it is not centered on the target.

    You can use Speculative Fire to attack enemy troopers with CH: Camouflage, TO or ODD who are behind a Partial Cover. By placing the center of the Template behind the enemy, you can bypass all MODS from Partial Cover (-3) and TO or ODD (-6), replacing them with one single Speculative Fire MOD (and whatever Range MODS are
    applicable).


    This rules says you can attack camo models in partial cover. Whats that all about?
     
    #5 Azuset, Dec 22, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2019
  6. KestrelM1

    KestrelM1 Well-Known Member

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    The rule is written in a very confusing way, but what it means is that you don't suffer the normal MODs for Mimetism/Camouflage/ODD/etc. when firing speculative fire.

    You still cannot target a model in a marker state directly. The only way to attack models in Camouflage with speculative fire is to have another target nearby and clip them with the template.
     
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  7. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I think most stuff has already been covered in this thread but the other thing that will help everyone help you is your list and the mission it was playing into.

    The Squalo isn't even the worst archetype of this list you can play into. Emily and Druze are significantly more annoying to play into if they're running spec fire options.
     
  8. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the heads up. I have not faced off against them before.
     
  9. Gero

    Gero Well-Known Member

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    Aham, You can target a point on the Board as target for Speculative fire, can’t you??
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Needs a main target against which all ranges are measured. Only attacks with the Targetless trait can target the board, everything else needs an enemy (or in case of Antimateriel, a piece of destructible terrain).
     
  11. Gero

    Gero Well-Known Member

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    Ahhhh, I see, some grenade launchers (smoke ones) have the targetless trait, while the ones with live ammo don’t have it, and yes I checked out the rule, it does need a valid main target.
     
  12. yoink101

    yoink101 Well-Known Member

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    Honestly? Play against someone who actually wants to play the game. I guess you could win a game or a tournament with some lucky dice by specfiring until the opponent can’t accomplish the mission. But why? It takes a game that is interactive, interesting, and requires skill and communication and turns that game into a crapshoot. Next time your opponent decides to spend 12+orders on speculative fire, just shake their hand, tell them to let you know when they’re done rolling dice, and go get a beer.
     
  13. KestrelM1

    KestrelM1 Well-Known Member

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    Or, you could actually take some of the excellent advice in this thread and learn to deal with speculative fire effectively.

    "Just quit" isn't a helpful or useful suggestion.
     
  14. yoink101

    yoink101 Well-Known Member

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    That’s not my suggestion. “Play with someone who actually wants to play a game” is my suggestion. Granted, it’s a tactic you need to be aware of and plan for, but if your opponent is just going to spend 12 orders on speculative fire on turn one, why did we bother showing up?

    I only get limited time to play games between work and kids. If my opponent showed up to to play a game of spec fire, I’d be pissed. Why did I bother setting up if we’re not even going to play the game? It’s different if my opponent uses a hunzakut lgl to take out a key ARO assassinate my LT. But that’s stuff I can plan for and mitigate.
     
  15. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    @yoink101 Are you sure you picked the right game, matey? For all I know, there are loads of ways to make certain engagements as non-interactive as possible, and that's what a competent player would actually strive to do, as it maximises their chance to win.

    Advising other players to huff, puff and quit when they face a non-interactive tactic is the same thing as saying "don't play against Blue decks in MTG". As Blue is a part of the MTG colour wheel and by this merit, an integral part of the game, so are non-interactive tactics in Infinity (and suddenly, in real-world warfare). Shooting through Smoke, flanking your opponent's troops and shooting them in their back, using Speculative Fire -- all this exists for the sole reason of providing you with more options to counter your opponent's strategy.

    Imagine if in a real-world war commanders would complain to their enemy that "using long-range artillery, ambush tactics and air support is not a gentleman's way to wage war" and that the only "true" way is to line up troops of one army in front of another army and shoot in turns like they did in the 18th century. How cool would that be!
     
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  16. SpectralOwl

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    As an NCA player with no other effective way to deal with certain tables/scenarios, can confirm that the Squalo HGL is dicey as all get out despite being one of the better artillery pieces in Infinity. Once burnt an entire turn failing to hit a HVT, it actually has worse odds to hit in 0 band than anything but REMs have to Dodge. Losing your whole list, even a meme one in two turns to just that Squalo is very unlikely. You may just need better luck, though you can stack the odds in your favour by using the high-PHY and high-ARM HI that Yu Jing has to draw the odds a little more in your favour. The other thing to remember is that Speculative Fire is an Entire Order skill, so that Squalo can't respond if you can get an ARO against it. Being tricky with a Hac Tao ML or Ninja placement could put a big dent in a TAG with a normal roll.
    I'm fairly sure that actually did happen when people started ignoring the "rules of war" established in Europe, at least the parts concerning ambush tactics and artillery. As for not playing against Blue, that's something I actually do and as a very casual M:tG player it's helped my enjoyment of the game immensely as it nearly halves the insane complexity of that particular card game. If you are really not enjoying playing a game thanks to an element, sometimes it really is better (outside a tournament) to just say no and play against someone you enjoy playing against more.
     
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  17. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    I'd say if you don't like playing against Blue in M:tG, then it's the same thing I told the previous guy -- maybe it's just not your game. Because, apart from Blue countering and bouncing your spells, there's also arrest and exile effects in White, tons of creature removal and discard in Black, direct damage in Red and Big Bad Boys with Trample entering the battlefield on turn 4 in Green. All of this is pretty nasty for the inexperienced player. Every colour has its ups and downs, and for the majority of the game's competitive history, it's actually Red that consistently tops the tournament tables and skews the meta. If anything, current Oko issues in Standard will probably be resolved with the next B&R announcement, because those decks tend to be really pervasive.
     
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  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You're blowing things out of proportion to the extreme. The number of units that are problematic when it comes to Speculative Fire is basically two; Druze LGL and Emily when they are in a Core Fireteam. They exist within two minor NA2 sectorials. The comparison to MTG is hands down not to Counterspell mechanics which would be more similar to having issues with Hidden Deployment - i.e. being a mechanic that exists everywhere. Instead it's much more similar to MTG's banned cards list where each major format tends to have cards that enable gameplay that has very few counters, are too strong, or too disruptive to play with in spite of many hundreds of hours of testing before release - something Infinity can't boast with.
    As such I'd put these two profiles down more similar to Ancient Den, which is very similar to a Plains except it can't be countered because it isn't a spell, or Skullclamp which I assume is banned simply because it makes a deck a bit too fast with all that card draw. What's a common theme for banned cards is that they usually don't provide unique mechanics, instead they are a bit too fast, a bit too difficult to counter, or simply does that mechanic a bit too good compared to a generally acceptable base line.

    So whether you like it or not, the comparison to MTG is an apt comparison, but it is one that supports banning Druze and Emily LGLs (from joining Core Fireteams), not one that counter-supports it.
     
  19. yoink101

    yoink101 Well-Known Member

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    I’m positive. Believe it or not, there’s a difference between cleverly using the options available and spending all of your orders on such a crapshoot and takes the engagement out of the game.

    The irony is that typically, 12 orders spent on spec fire, even on a Squalo, is likely to only achieve 3-4 wounds. It is way more effective for NCA to engage directly in most cases.
     
  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like your complaint isn't actually about spec fire as a mechanic, but about your opponent playing in a tactically inefficient way that largely removes strategic decision and 2 party decision making from the game and turns it more towards a simple game of chance (warhammer). Regardless of who wins or loses it makes for a boring un-engaging game.

    Which if that is actually what you're complaining about, I think it's a valid complaint.
     
    #20 Triumph, Jan 6, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2020
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