I've played a few games with the Nadhir but I think I'm using him badly. On paper, I of course like it very much - mimetism 6, Hidden Deployment, specialist, shock BS attack! - but I am not able to execute on the table. This applies to my playing in general but I want to highlight the Nadhir for now. Focusing on just the first two profiles (which seem far and away the most popular and, not coincidentally, the least expensive), my instinct was to use the Nadhir like a Super PF Daylami, firing his launcher weapon at targets of opportunity. However, even stacking mimetism (-6) and cover, the burst 1 is extremely risky in ARO, meaning that even with those modifiers, the likelihood of the higher burst of an enemy will break through is pretty good. Risking him like a Daylami just doesn't make sense given his cost. In fact, revealing him the reactive turn doesn't make much sense in general, because after he is revealed, he is a much easier target (naturally, given he's on the table and all). So is it better to reveal with the higher burst weapon? The SMG/FS profile is marginally cheaper, but with only 4" Forward Deployment, it seems unlikely someone will get into effective range until late in the game (or at all). The R+LSG/PF has at least +3 on something out to 32", which is better IMO. So is revealing - in active turn, to possibly benefit from Suprise Attack - the best option for the rifle? If so, how to position? Because he lacks a marker state like an honest to goodness TO/Hidden Deployment unit, he needs start in a place where his revealing attack will immediately be useful. That is, it has to be somewhere with cover without moving anywhere to benefit from Surprise Attack, which I think is very tough. My idea up til now has been to place him toward the center of my deployment zone so he will catch something, but generally what he catches is some bullets after getting out-bursted in ARO with his launcher weapon. So my new ideas are: 1 - Reveal right away, mostly forsaking Hidden Deployment and Surprise Attack, then placing into Suppressing Fire. This would stack -6 for mimetism, -3 for cover (I hope!), and -3 for SF and extend the range of his threat, especially with the SMG. And if something juicy tries to move beyond 24", the launcher is an option. 2 - Keep Hidden Deployment but use near the table edge. If something with Airborne Deployment walks on thinking it can get a good angle, it can receive a shotgun or SMG. This works, I think, on less impressive AD options (like lackluster Ragik), but against something with Mimetism (Spetsnaz or Tiger) or something tough like a Liu Xing, its speed bump territory. In both cases, the Nadhir is more of a glorified deterrent that could be better filled by a Daylami, but he would have the option to grabbing an objective as a FO if he has the unlikely fortune to survive. So, what am I missing about the use of the Nadhir? How are you finding success? I suppose this applies to the Shujae to a lesser extent, he has an even worse survival rate for me than the Nadhir as he can easily get chain rifled if he capitalizes on Forward Deployment.
I've only ever really used the Flammenspeare Nadhir. If you're going to use him, I think he exists for AROs. Whether he's worth it or not is an open question, but if you do decide to use him, he's really only interesting as a surprise template ARO. Sure you could put him in suppression instead, but other units do that better - even the Shujae (*gasp*) would be a better unit in that case. Recently I've had a Nadhir in every list, and I agree with you, he doesn't always perform well. Even when you get a perfect shot, you have a 25% chance of just missing the roll, and once he's revealed, he's very easy to remove. Daylamis have similar issues. I've kept him in there because, weak though he is, he's still one of best long-range AROs we have. It's good to have a long-range option (if you have nothing then you can get devoured by warbands or pitchers on T1 if you go second) and we don't have a lot to choose from. Probably our only better long-range AROs are the Sunduqbut neuro feuerbach, or Armand (in vanilla) - both are a lot more points and SWC than the Nadhir. In particular, he's my hope for stopping pitchers from Bit and Kiss, not that any option is really great against those two. But if you can predict where they'll advance, in theory you can surprise them with a Nadhir shot before they get close enough to launch the repeaters. Daylamis don't work because they can see where they are and either avoid them, or discover them and shoot them with a Bulltrak or similar.
I've also only played with the cheapest profile of Nadhir - SMG/FS FO. In most games he didn't do much, even when surprising my enemies. I usually tried to put him to cover the same fire lane as some Daylami did to have more dices against upcoming attack. There were games when he did great - depending usually on the first shot. Part of the reason for the hard to predict effects are the dice rolls. I also like to use Hafza HRL hidden as something else and while there were times when he suprised even a bunch of enemies, I mostly failed my BS rolls ;) Second thing - IIRC most of times Nadhir faced a really tough enemies. For example I tried to use his HRL against Avatar few times, paired with Daylamis, Hafza HRL et cetera, and it's hard to expect him to live long while fighting against that beast. One time he did so good in stopping Avatar, that I drawn a simingly lost battle (going with my soldiers to death for ITS "Retreat!" rule and tricking enemy for killing them too fast ;) ) :P That said, I like my AROs aggressive, so I'm still going to use Nadhir from time to time. Pair him up with Shihab or Daylamis and check how he'll work. Especially that finally there's a miniature to put on the table - if he survives the moment of revealing himself ;) :D (About Shujae - didn't use at all, but the new sweet mini makes me want to at least give him a try). PozdRawiam / Greetings
I run the Flammenspeare Nadhir in some lists. Its opponent faction and table dependent, but I think I have three use cases: 1. If I'm playing against a faction with links, I deploy it in cover trying to see as much as the board as possible. Then I wait until my opponent moves a link in my good range and hopefully out of cover before trying to splash things. 2. If I'm playing against vanilla, then I just try to find a place where it will have good range bands and cover my own DZ. 3. In missions where I need specialists, I hide it somewhere where it can only see a limited lane, but where I can also get to an objective if needed. In any case, I almost never pop it out right away. I want my opponent to commit orders to an attack run before I surprise them this the Nadhir, then I'm hoping to stop their attack run and not leave them enough orders for another one. Also, I always expect my Nadhir to die in a couple orders after its out. If it can survive, its a bonus.
A one off shot like you mentioned is rather lack luster. If possible, use a combined arms approach with the Nadhir when using template or Panzerfausts. For example, I use two Nadhirs with Flame Spear in conjunction with three Muyibs with HRLs. And, for your Panzerfaust you can overlap with MLs. HB can build a list with so many Panzerfausts it’s almost a meme in a good way.
@Methuselah By splash things, you mean hit non-primary target with a template? For instance, some of my regular opponents field fireteams led by Shang Ji HMG, Vet Kazak HMG, or Karhu feuerbach. If they are the link leader and I reveal to shoot, the Nadhir almost certainly will die but you'd be betting on the template hitting a friend? Or target a friend and hope they all dodge? @sololobo In other words, you are saying overlapping ARO with Daylami and Muyib?
@vorthain Yes. I play HB, so I can use more of the same type profile or weapon. If you have the opportunity, I would recommend it when selecting what enemy model to pop.
Thanks. I will try to friend him with a Daylami. In your experience, if presented with the link leader with a HMG or non-link leader, is it better to target the former to contest a shoot second order, or the latter to potentially force a team dodge (or take the full burst of the HMG)?
The question wasn't for me, but in my experience it all depends on the enemy, the situation on the table and scenario. It's not only with Nadhir, but also with Daylami, sometimes Lasiq or - with similar weaponry - Hafza HRL or Muyib HRL. Sometimes I shot against the leader, sometimes against other member of the link, if there was some specialist or other important guy - like a potential Lieutenant. Nadhir has Mimetism -6 and usually is in cover, so he's not that easy to be hit - sometimes it's worth to take the risk of full burst normal roll to have a high chance of taking out important enemy. And when facing an enemy fireteam, you have a high propability that you'll be able to pop up and shot at a place that few members walked through, getting them all in the circular template. It's just purely beautiful to wipe out most of the link with one good campfire :D PozdRawiam / Greetings
Yeah I guess it seems to me against any 5 man pure core fireteam, the odds are against the Nadhir; enemy link leader gets +3 range, +3 fireteam, -3 cover, -6 mimetism is only net -3, and if they are in cover in good range the Nadhir is on a 12. Add in burst and, at least to me, it makes the most sense not to aim for the link leader. It seems like this would come up less often on other units like Muyib and Daylami as ones opponent probably won't be so reckless exposing themself whereas they won't know against the Nadhir.
The odds are always against the defender, but this is where I would recommend leveraging Haqqs preferred defensive tools e.g. rushing jammers on the flanks, lobbing pitchers centerfield, and/or overlapping AoEs. It’s all area denial. This drains their order pool. Instead of one off shots with panzerfausts try to immobilize an enemy then pop them with a panzerfaust e.g. ‘stop-n-pop.’ If it’s not conducive to stop-n-pop then try overlapping panzerfausts against their big baddies such as HI/TAGs.
Sounds good. I am pretty bad about using jammers and pitchers. Ghazis tend to get shot on the approach. Pitchers I am often scared to use as one of my regular opponents is Tunguska and it seems like asking their Interventor to hack me through it. But I imagine the Barid is one of the better options in HB for that kind of hacking. Neither here nor there but I feel like I am terrible at using the Fiday as well; I rarely get a kill even going first. Effectively using him for a start might also help stop enemy attack pieces.
IMO the big challenge is turn 1 when you go second. You haven't yet had a chance to lob repeaters, remove a threat with a Fiday, move up jammers, anything. Your opponent has an alpha strike planned and you need to blunt it using only your initial deployment. Doubling up a Nadhir with another ranged ARO is certainly an option. The advantage of course is that you're more likely to win the fight since your opponent unexpectedly has to fight two ARO pieces at once. There are also downsides: - Opponent will usually still have >50% odds of winning the fight, and when they do, they've killed two of your pieces instead of one. - You usually only get one shot at it, once the Nadhir is revealed they can pie slice and fight them one at a time on subsequent orders. - Your Nadhir usually won't get them out of cover, since they'll have stayed in cover to fight the visible ARO. - If they choose to avoid the visible ARO with smoke or just by playing around it, they also avoid the Nadhir if it's covering the same spots. I definitely haven't cracked the code when it comes to T1 alpha strike defense. My current approach is one Nadhir as the only ranged ARO piece, combined with hacking and jammers to defend the DZ. Ideally the Nadhir reveals when they're also fighting a jammer, but that isn't always possible. Either way, the goal is for the Nadhir to slow them just enough to blunt the attack, while only costing 24 points and one group slot. Anything more than that, and it feels like they don't need to alpha strike because they can get enough benefit just by killing the ARO pieces.
I feel like the Nadhir works well with Shihab or possibly a Suduqbut. Those are stiff enough that it takes dedicated resources to defeat. Based on the target, you can reveal at the same time or wait until they try to cross the "cleared" firelane. All you need to do is to get them to waste orders and slow down.
Hi, back in the past I did a lot of use of the classic nadhir with flamespear as one of my main ARO pieces, same as you did. I preffer FS than Panzerfaust because it allow to exploit a mistake or to put in danger fireteams. When you catch 2 or 3 figures under the template... You know :D To me usually have a high supervivence ratio, making enemies to spend orders triying to kill him. It is a profile to make it appear forcing multiple ARO (isn´t too hard having daylamis) and as a Bonus it has FO, so can fight more or less in 24'' and to push buttons. But I did use too of the minelayer profile. Until the moment you have to count orders, nobody knew if that is or not a mine. A good thing. The marksmanship rifle gives him an interesting range. For second or third turn this guy can try to be the hero even spliting burst. Any model out of range will shoot him badly. I used him several times to hunt troups in the last turn, when the main weaponery are combirifles, lightshotguns, etc. With a couple of orders can clean the path for that specialist to the objetive. The only thing I miss when I play this profile is the specialist option. Best regards.
The slight problem with Nadhir is that he doesn't have Flash Pulse, only Forward Observer. Unlike most of FOs. Hunza has the same drawback. So Nadhir after shooting both Flameenspeers is definitely more vulnerable. He'd be much better with Flash Pulse. Wanted to play Nadhir in tomorrow's 200 pts X-Mas tournament, but didn't had time to put together the mini. And I'd also like to try the AP Marksman version. Bad I have much less time to play now also. PozdRawiam / Greetings
I agree it seems a bit arbitrary who gets flash pulse and who doesn't, especially since flash pulse having stun effects is extremely annoying (more so than taking a wound sometimes). Still, a forward observe roll, if successful, can help on the next exhange. The AP marksman as a late game hunter is interesting but HB has many units that can swing something similar.
I've definitely landed some fun AROs with the Nadhir's FO once he's out of Flammenspears. FO means he's still a threat and the opponent has to spend another other to get rid of him, which is better than say a Daylami which they can ignore once he's out of Panzerfausts.
The fun part is the FO builds in synergy with other units like a guided missile bot. The same synergy can be applied to spent Daylami. Throw in a Ragik and Evo Bot with two Daylami. Now the Daylami have the option to reload.
