N5 Command token order strip 10 order limit

I suppose is Option 1. Total of the army list

 

Delete my previous response. It seems that needs a FAQ, as it's unclear what is the correct answer

 

It is slated for FAQ.

 

RAW it should be option 1, since it’s based on the Army List, but it has to take place at the normal time since you can’t strip orders that haven’t been counted. The problem is that it’ll give away potential Private Information, and it’s not clear whether you ask whether you can do it and your opponent says “no” or whether it’s like Counterintelligence and you only know if it’s legal after spending the CT irrevocably.

 

It needs to be moved back to models. Tac awareness impacts it. Ruins some hidden deployment shenanigans and is just a mess. Back to more than 1 combat group would be excellent.

 

I can understand the confusion, but truly, it is telling you when to perform the action, after the orders count, before to start the game. Not how many orders has your list before to start the counting. It is the same wording used when rulebook explains how to count regular orders, the amount of orders available for the Army List. And nobody is thinking to count the whole orders in the army list, before the step where orders are counted.

 

It says after the orders count because you cannot remove orders from empty order pool before order count. Also, it says "remove the Orders from Army Lists that have more than 10 Orders”, not "order pools that have more than 10 Orders”.

No. Order count step from the rulebook says nothing about the Army List.

 

Army List has the amount of orders that you just have count during the generation of the order pool. It can´t be <<...order pools that have more than 10 Order...>> since irregular orders and tactical orders aren´t part of the pool.

Please, check page 12 from pdf rulebook.



Don´t know, instructions are saying: count how many orders of type A, B, C do you have. (It was already explained in page 12 about the count and the pool and the availability to an Army List). Then, check if your Army List have more than 10 adding A, B or C types... after the count, if so, then a Command Token can be used to remove 2 orders of that total. Those aren´t the exact words, but is the sequence they are describing.

 

It's not obvious that a definition of "what is an Order Pool" actually answers the question here, since the Order Pool isn't part of the Command Token rule in question. It doesn't say "Orders in the Order Pool plus any Tactical and Irregular Orders available during the Order Count."

 

Well... I did my best to argument. In infinity rules are really spread around the "book". I can't say too much more. The implications of the interpretation about "army list" brings a lot of issues...

1. No where in rulebook is defined how many orders have a list outside the "orders count phase". A lot would argument is "the amount you have listed in Army". But which Army... APP or Web, since they don't count same. APP don't show tactical orders.

2. What about NCO, they are Tactical Orders if you want to use it. Should we to count those or not? They are tactical orders, so we should, right? Again, nothing explain player have to share the Private Information. So, 10 orders is the information you will have. However, we are talking about "army list orders" and ignoring when we have to check because RAW.

3. What about private information? Player don't have to share if the list have more orders since those for Combat Jump, Hidden Deployment, etc. and the orders are kept as private information. When I should tell you if the list has more than 10? When you spend the token? After the count? RAW private information is able to kept RAW. They don't say player should reveal private information about the amount of orders in his list. This creates a loop.

4. Ok, let's assume is after the count... Then, you realize to do things in this way allows to exploit to have an empty group. Since RAW no minimum is required to... So, someone could show you a list with 10 orders, 2 groups, then you will have to decide if you want to take the chance to remove orders of not, I mean, literally allows somebody to force you to waste one token or not to use it... Or to know really well the other army.

5. Why it would be Tactical Awareness Optional if we can't choose not to use it in the first turn to avoid to have orders removed?

So... We can still be focused in a really really hard RAW of the last line and skip the previous information about the when (this is the key), and ignoring that when the order pools generation is explained they refers too to the Army List.

 

1. Army list is the list you brought with you to play.

2. NCO is not counted as tactical order until the lt order is converted and is not listed as an included order type for stripping orders.

3. What they are is still private. You would simply say you have more than 10 orders.

4. You can’t have an empty group in your list.

5. Irrelevant as tac aware is explicitly called out as counting as part of your orders.

 

I think this sentence explains it clearly, which would lead i to your option 2.

The way i read and play it, it if my opponent has no more than a total of 10 orders, as explaind by the composition of regular and irregular and tactical, therefore I cannot strip 2 orders from my opponent.
As a reader would notice, the impetous and lieutenant orders do not count because ther are specifically used for that individual trooper.
NCO skill is a skill, not an order, that allows a trooper to use the Lt order. This rule was introduced because the Lt order was never used on the Lieutenant because it revealed it. It became a wasted order. Until NCO skill was introduced.

I think this rule element is being over thought. It is not about list size, rather orders generated during the tactical phase only.
Hidden deployment anrd airborne deployment just have to not be considered because their orders are not generated during the tactical phase.

I daresay that, unless someone is bringing a Corregidor list as a meme with 4 hellcats and 3 tomcats and they have 4 orders generated, then they all lose their order when they come onto the table, only using what is available from the order count to achieve objectives. Theorising they are 1V troopers and 1 or 2 enter each round, they are easy to kill. They would not be that effective. Even if they were to all come on at once, they are still limited to the orders generated for that turn. Some will remain on the table edge easy to shoot at in the opponent's active turn.

I guess i may have to table such a list and see how it plays out.

 

1. Yes... but, how many orders have the list? Orders are generated during the game, not in the list. Nothing in the rules says otherwise. This is why Command Tokens wait until orders count, then tells about the amount of orders.

2. Well, NCO makes LT order tactical orders, and the rule said clearly, following the way you understand the rules ...more than 10 Orders (Regular + Irregular + Tactical)... So, they are Tactical if you wanna use it. You can't ignore that by saying when you have to do the count to argument "is not count until converted", are or aren't in the army list those orders? Are or not tactical orders? If you need to wait until converted, then you need to wait until to have the orders available to be counted? Then, you will have to ignore the orders of hidden deployment...

3. Once again, where says in the rules someone have to share if I have or not more than 10? If someone tell you so, it will be sharing with you private information, the presence of this kind of troops is, per rules, private.

4. Yes, you can. Rules clearly explain you can have as many groups as you want with the only limit to no more than 10 troupes (with peripherical, etc. exception), but nothing about a minimum. Even, you can try to create a list with empty group in the Army, then to check the "army check" it will be green. Even OTM will allow you to upload it.

Evidence



5. Once again, rules says Tactical not Tactical Awareness.



Exactly why you couldn't ignore NCO if we go for this strange way of "partial raw". And once more, T.Awarenes is optional. So it need to generated, same as NCO. Why the timing now is important for TA, but not for NCO?

I'm only trying to show you guys, that the half interpretation you are doing, ignoring partially some parts of the rulebook has a lot of holes, unwanted or uncontrolled issues... Once the rule is partially ignored, this is what is happening here, because a lot of people is choosing to skip the part where the Order Count is mentioned, a lot of weird things happens. Yes, CB could write better, but sometimes misunderstanding's are entirely on us. This is the case. Is not about to discuss only for the discussion or to "win the conversation", honestly, I think people are misunderstanding the rule and trying harder to keep in his original understanding that to see what others are saying.

 

Hidden and airborne deployment units "generate Orders", they just don't add their order to the order pool. And the command token rule does not specifically say orders in order pool or orders in open information.