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N4 Military Orders - As Things Stand

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by AdmiralJCJF, Nov 10, 2020.

  1. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    I do know he got a new sculpts. His new sculpts is shorter than. FK which is the base model for the conversion, hence my comment he fits better next to the hospitallers
     
  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Sorry but there's a few misunderstandings here.
    What I'm saying is 40 points for a MODless trooper with a bunch of 14s and ARM4 isn't amazing for attrition games. Especially without Core MODs in a Haris.
    What makes Magisters great isn't that that they're going to win most FTF rolls. It's that no matter what they have a good answer to the first guy trying, basically gives them ablative defenses and impose a high risk. At 1/2 to 2/3 of the price of a potentially less survivable other Knight.
    When your opponent is bringing out Multi HMGs or linked SWC weapons to play you're likely losing the FTF more often than not. Magisters simply make the case of a "not" more likely and more punishing than any HMG, Spitfire or Multirifle Knight could. In terms of attrition and durability they're pretty much impossible to beat by other linked Knights. Knights look fairly good in terms of defensive durability compared to i.e. IA HI, but have to carry more weight to compensate for being slower, lack of TA, NCO and weapon choices.

    MO is a PanO Sectorial. A fairly elite one at that. You're unlikely to have enough pieces to get around defenses and pick your engagements by having multiple attack vectors. By design MO is supposed to and capable of going straight through almost anything head on and punish the other guy for trying to force you to resort to something like a Peacemaker instead of your high octane TAG/HI.
    They are well worth it as a supplement to be sacrificial pawns to take the heat instead of more important troops and to utilize your secondary Order pools. They shouldn't be the centerpiece of your plans.

    Boy do I wish a DeFe Haris was cost efficient, a viable backfield Lt that isn't Joan was a thing and NCO existed on Knights as useful as Ectros HMGs or IA's candidates backed by a secured Lt L2 option.
    Don't let that stop you from playing that, just be aware of the pitfalls and limitations.
     
    #42 Teslarod, Nov 23, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2020
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  3. Guardian

    Guardian Well-Known Member
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    Just played my last game with MO until the rework happens.
    Not being able to protect a 10 order list from first turn command token use is the last nail in the coffin for MO in my book.
     
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  4. Cdp1492

    Cdp1492 Well-Known Member

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    I think it hurts but isn't the last nail in the coffin. I'm sorry to hear that you'll be putting down the sectorial until the rework. I think that we are still durable enough and bring enough wounds to get the job done. I have a game tonight and we'll see how it goes but I've been playing with getting limited from the start of n4 and still had success with limited insertion lists.
     
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  5. valukr

    valukr Well-Known Member

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    I personally think DeFerzen is a fantastic profile, but hey horses for courses.

    I think I need to define attrition, what i have been doing with MO is in turn 1 and 2, is doing damage to the enemy in the active and hiding in my reactive. The attack vectors i been using are Dart, Montessa, Peacemaker. I've only rolled my Heavy link out turn 3, at which point the enemy cant deal with it as I've chipped away at them throughout. It's not an easy play style initially, as you have to be very defensive minded and make sure your Heavy Inf Link is well insulated and protected, and the enemy cannot get any of its high burst/high dmg weapons at optimal ranges.

    Honestly though, it's been a super rewarding playstyle, totally unique to my previous ISS, Haqq and Shasvastii experiences.

    I feel the hit to 10 model lists, with the ability to take away 2 order with a command token is going to be interesting, I think we might have to learn to deploy first and go second. This will mean more doctors/paramedics, auxiliary profiles and at least one Trinetarian/HI for suppression(via command token) as a speed bump
     
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  6. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    My experience has been always down to the wire against experienced opponents. I can't take 2 orders out of my game, I don't have them to spare. This change basically kills the hospitalier core and crusade teams. I think you'll see the magister link or OS link and maybe a "hospitalier" haris. And by hospitalier I mean HMG, infirmer and OS Mook to keep it cheap. I think we'll see tags and OS become the mainstay and risky Lts become the norm. Its pretty disappointing to see nerf into side grade into nerf be the trajectory for the knights from N2 to N4.
     
    #46 Judge Dredd, Nov 24, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
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  7. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Well, I'm playing more like @valukr and it worked wonderfuly so far. The hyper aggressive gameplay I used in N3 is dead for now but a more standard PanO way of doing things has been rewarding so far. Dart, Trinitarians, Montesa, Peacemakers and the KoJ Hacker+Bulleteer Spitfire duo did an excellent job at probing and harassing my opponents while my core team was just side moving like a crab until T3 rush. I also think that the Clipper has a role in a MO list, if you can accept to stop playing full HIs core teams. With easy spotlight, Peacemakers and Trinitarians in the sectorial, the targeted state isn't hard to get. Plus, it's a rather useful ARO piece that will rarely die on the first lost FtF, so you can repair it later again and again.

    Yes, MO has problems against some troops and combos of troopers, but they do the job well most of the time.
    And, really, I think the Magisters are pretty trash now. Sure they are 2W troopers for 22 points but as order goons, I prefer to rely on OS and field better optimised speed bumpers and harassing units in order to reach 13-15 troopers.
     
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  8. Pinky

    Pinky Well-Known Member

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    I think I've mentioned this a number of times and yes, you can play MO as basically worse Acontacimento. Tik, Dart, some Trinitarians and orders to fuel them.
    But, I don't think most people want to play wose Acontacimento.
    I want to play my painted crusaders in space, not rems and agile tags.
    As I'm obviously not getting HI crusaders on the table I don't really see much point in playing them now especially since Acontacimento actually just hit and it's a wonderful, flexible, well balanced fun to play and thematic sectorial.
     
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  9. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    You see, that's exactly why MO is seen as a weak sectorial compared to any other PanO sectorial. Because everyone struggling wants to play it with full HIs FT on the field, even if it is suicidal to do so. It's like wanting to drive at 90km/h in town. If you're not really skilled and lucky, you're going to crash in flames somewhere.

    The core of your striking units will always be HIs or TAGs but those will rarely be more than 4. Sure, if you play scenarios like Biotechvore or Panic room, a good old core of Hospitallers will do a good work, but an OS one with some KoJ and Santiago in it will work as good.
    So far, my best lists were 13 orders ones and one of them had a Montesa Tik in it. And I didn't played them only against weaker players. I don't say they are the best, I say that there is a big realm outside of 10 orders lists and that this realm is competitive.

    And comparing Acontecimento and MO is like comparing pomelos and oranges, just because they belong the same big phenologic family.
    MO has access to TO infiltrators, Acontecimento doesn't. MO has access to hard to assassinate lieutenants, Acontecimento doesn't. MO struggles against high armor+huge mimetism long range AROs, Acontecimento doesn't. MO has wide access to durable, combat effective specialists, Acontecimento doesn't. MO can cover 85% of the classified objectives in a pocket haris team, Acontecimento doesn't (ok, yes you can with a very specific Bagh Haris, but this is more trivial in MO).

    See? You don't play those two sectorials the same. But it doesn't mean that you have to play dumb and forget that you're playing PanOceanians first and foremost. So, of course, there are common ways of doing things such as castle up, use your SK and fast units to harass your opponent's front line etc.

    What I don't like in MO so far, it is that we have to wait to have our full sectorial functional. Being forced to wait for Magisters, Teutons and KotHS to show us if they are going to be definitively dead weight or not is frustrating.
     
    #49 Ayadan, Nov 24, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  10. Ammon

    Ammon Member

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    If big stompy space knights are not the most viable way to play MO then what are we doing here? Why should we be expected to play an army that does not deliver on its core fantasy and identity?
     
  11. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    I think the main issue is CB either doesn't know how or has no desire to deliver that core aspect.

    Sectorials which want to field predominantly HI are in an odd spot, because HI did get cheaper but that discount seems to have taken place because their counters got significantly more prevalent.

    We will see if when the rework which we still have no date on, happens some of that will get addressed.
     
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  12. Ammon

    Ammon Member

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    That MO was a half baked idea from the get go and has no advocate internally is obvious at this point but is popular so they can't get rid of them. The fact that the Orders have persisted in the state that they are in while getting worse every edition is inexcusable. Add to this that since you have basically not drawn on the real histories of the Military Orders to give them strong identities is also baffling. For instance why are the Teutons which spent much of their history fighting pagan guerrillas in the forests and swamps of Prussia so bare bones with options. It should be slam dunk to observe that given their conflicts with the Shasvasti they should have access to visors, both MSV and biometric, and maybe sensor. Wow it was that easy to make them an interesting option to consider over the generally more efficient Hospitalars or the giant bandage that is the Santiago KHD. Oh can we tell CB that weapons other than spitfires exist and we would like some of them.
     
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  13. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    I haven't counted in a while but at 1 point MO had a whopping 17 spitfire profiles
     
  14. Ammon

    Ammon Member

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    It's 18 now.
     
  15. Firellon

    Firellon Optimising underdogs

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    *Laughs in Japanese* (Have you checked out new DoTanko Core team that allows you to pick like 185-200 more points of other stuff?)

    Honestly, it's extremely disappointing how little love CB gives to the army that brought me into this game, the army that stands proudly on the shelf now and awaits for the better times. The one and only holders of BS17 HMG in a HI link of Magister+Hospitaller, the ultimate TO Camo Swiss army knife guys, the most characterful and thematic force that felt righteous to play... now, gone, buried beneath the power creep of other armies and a bunch of sidegrades that made it... less playable, in the end, albeit slightly more interesting and various.

    And, while it's fairly easy and straightforward army to play, it's not fun anymore, and it does not feel rewarding at all, as most of your solutions will be "shoot at it with an HMG or Spitfire until it dies", period. Yeah, Trinitarians are nice, but... I kinda liked the TOFOOS with Combi Rifle, as she could do much better at a crucial out-of-mines range of 8-16 inches. Adding salt to the injury, all of the knights besides KoJ are suddenly slow and bulky now, compared to other HI, including (!) ORCs and Mobile Brigadas, the dumbest, the most boring HI in the game. Why, CB, why?!

    All the whining aside, I personally find the challenge JSA proposes (lack of reliable shooting in a shooting game, no good command token manipulation, no AD, lacking hackers) much more engaging than the one proposed by MO (lack of cost-efficient Lts sans Joan and Santiago, lack of cheerleaders, no smoke, no vis mods on the main shooting pieces sans Tikbalang), and highly recommend people looking up to playing HI force to pick either JSA or IA. Hell, even Corregidor with their Evaders and Vostoks can be better at doing HI Link team than MO. What a pity.
     
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  16. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Yeah, but you're striking exactly where I'm complaining too. Teutons, Magisters and KotHS just got nerfed for no reason and then were sent to the fridge until CB decides to finally finish their lousy job. I can't remember which units were treated like that in the past, but I just remember that's how CB deals with units in need of rework while they don't want to a give shit about it right now. I even suspect them to have made them crap so new players don't look at the old minis (since they want them to look at the new shiny stuff). At the moment, MO lacks very few tools, but those are criticals:
    - Effective ways to deal with troopers like Phoenix or Avatar at long range outside of just bringing a Tikbalang
    - Effective ways to deal with forward deployed repeaters outside of just bringing Dart. A good linkable platform for Spec firing would be nice for that.

    As you can see, we have tools to deal with the problems the sectorial has. The main problem is that they are expensive and unique (in a AVA1 meaning) platforms. That's a problem for a PanO sectorial. Having most of our HIs being 4-4 is less of a problem, IMO, since they are supposed to operate with Lazarus, Black Friars and Sergeants in offensive teams, compared to ORCs and stuff operating more as long range point men for static fireteams most of the time.

    I have some ideas about what could become Teutons, Magisters and KotHS in order to become those more interesting solutions while still being very MO-like. But I'm not sure if those would be good ones.

    At the moment, I think MO is good enough for most of the scenarios if the tables aren't some crapy sniper wet dreams. But I agree we don't need all those spitfires on everyone. Some more Feuerbarch, Rocket Launchers, Grenade Launchers and AP HMG would be great too.
     
  17. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    I mean even if we have ideas of how to fix the issues it is not like they will be listened to. Considering how many hundreds of suggestions for fixing teutons have graced these forums.
     
  18. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    That's why I don't bother exposing them too. And to be frank, I don't want to raise my expectations high. They did a good work with MO since the 3rd Offensive rework, even if I understood well that I'm a bit alone here, but I always feel that they will never go too much crazy with MO because they fear to go to the OP side. But, I'll be frank, they can go with daring ideas. MO needs a bit more spicy things right now. The sectorial is good, but you need some crazy stuff also in order to get people interested by more than just the esthetic.
     
  19. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    Many sectorials get away with being ahead of the power curve , so I don't think things being OP is a concern. Not even things that are lame interactions to face like the kodali issue of her eating your links , seem to be a direct concern.
     
  20. Cdp1492

    Cdp1492 Well-Known Member

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    Alright so after a few games against multiple people and multiple missions I have a few takeaways. Going first is still the correct choice against other limited insertion lists even though you'll get limited. Going first against larger order pools can still be done but is more challenging. I have started opting to go second and choose a better side with better lines of sight against larger order pools and putting somthing in suppression to cover a flank rather than go first. That being said going first and using 8 orders and LT is still a viable option but leaves little room for error which is nothing new. I think joan and her free cordinated is very important when going first and I often use it as a way to get people hidden at the end of first turn. As I play more games maybe my opinion will change but for now I think limiting 10 order groups is fine. Do I think we should have more tac aware, nco and LT level 2 options? Yes. Are we dead without them? No I dont think so.
     
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