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N4 Bakunin disappointments and potential fixes

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Hachiman Taro, Oct 7, 2020.

  1. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    ‘When that happens, the Moderator Corps is not going to cut it, so they send us in to find the weirdness and beat the devil out of it until it stops acting up. It’s never easy, but that’s why we’re the Special Weapons and Suppressive Tactics team, we’re elite. When you’re up against freaking mad science, you have to make your own rules and improvise. And if every once in a while that means taking a bunch of Morlocks and throwing them into the fray to buy us a few minutes and some room to maneuver, so be it.’

    Sergeant 1st Class Brad Corrigan, SWAST-4. Rogue ontodroids-related incident in the Celestial Choir of the Cosmic Power module. Praxis. Bakunin.

    In a recent White Noise episode @HellLois emphatically crushed my dream of being allowed a Taskmaster + 2 Morlocks (remaining irregular) Haris in Bakunin.

    I’m a bit curious why since they are described as working in basically exactly that way in the fluff (quoted above), Oznats + Hungries seem to have got a similar option in Morats, and it doesn’t seem to be an super strong option, just a cool and fluffy one (provided the Morlocks stay irregular, necessitating them leaving the fireteam to use their own order).

    This got me thinking about other things that I think should happen to help internal balance and fluffiness in Bakunin, much of which doesn’t seem to have improved in N4.

    Don’t get me wrong, Bakunin have some great changes (making Moderators decent is amazing) and I think are pretty competitive in N4. But just some things really got left behind or don’t seem to fit the fluff that well.

    So here’s my list of changes that could be improved easily in Bakunin in N4, without being too powerful.

    • Taskmaster + 2 Morlock Haris (as mentioned)
    • Taskmasters should probably be able to be part of Moderator Fireteams rather than Riot Grrls – wouldn’t make much practical difference, since Moderators and Riots can mix. But literal violently feminist Riot Grrls exclusively accepting a literal master, seems a little odd. And Moderators are at least mentioned in the Taskmaster fluff, supporting the idea they might work together.
    • Kusnangi should have Lt lv2 instead of +1 SWC. She’s an inspirational leader in the fluff, not a logistics expert. And this would help Reverends be worth their high cost somewhat, in a fluffy way.
    • Kusanagi should count as a Moira so her link options are more flexible (including being able to link with a Custodier and a Healer in a Haris)
    • Non Lt Custodiers should have NCO. This would make them useful and suit their command abilities when not actually commanding.
    • The Moira Lt should not cost SWC. It’s silly and no one ever takes it.
    • Moiras should have NCO on only one or a few profiles (the HMG, E/M grenade launcher and or the Hacker), to drop cost. Frankly, they cost too much and aren’t flexible enough in N4, and they were already very highly priced in N3
    • Sineaters should maybe get something to make them a slightly better choice compared to Total Reaction REMs., Shock Immunity would be the obvious (boring) one - perhaps even link with Moiras would be a quite strong but cool one.
    I could go on, but that’s the main ones that would be great for BJC IMHO, not for power but just to make those things work OK. With maybe a bit of a points break on Observance troops in general, you might even see them on the table more than very occasionally, since they still seem expensive and squishy. That'd be nice, cause they are cool.

    Anyway that’s my ranty 2c after being disappointed by that answer for now. What are your thoughts?
     
    #1 Hachiman Taro, Oct 7, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
  2. Lucian

    Lucian Well-Known Member

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    Who knows how much you would care for your principles when it's time to pay for your monthly oxygen bill.

    Morlocks + Task. I can only imagine the possibilities of shenanigans like:
    - Get close
    - Pop B2 smoke with morlock
    - Plop Koala that can activate in your turn with taskmaster
    - Get in range and punch with a glorious B3 da (or em) ccw on morlock with opponent forced to dodge or get free koala.

    And that all for a mere 60-ish points (yeah, obviously there will have to be a more expensive regular morlock FTO). Can become even better if you throw in wildcards like Wolff.

    *UPD* Oh, silly me, you can pretty much do exactly that with riot haris + taskmaster + wolff. Except for smoke part.
    Maybe they just don't want to give more cheap fireteam fillers? Even at 10 pts regular morlock + chain rifle seems pretty competitive.
     
    #2 Lucian, Oct 7, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
  3. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    my two cents:

    prowler got more expensive... changing bioinmunity for a beter BTS and shock inmunity (which was inside bioinmunity) is a good change, but ending being more expensive is not so good in the end. Same happened to moiras, got new things (direct NCO), but payed directly for them.

    all BJC religious troop are a bit overcosted, they still need to apply the discount that was not applied in n3. We will not get Lt2, so kusanagi bringing something like that is no problem. Her spitfire could cost less SWC though. She counting as moira should have been done too.

    the taskmaster haris with morlocks will bring a lot of hate, even if it is not powerful. Also, now that morlocks have no stealth, it seems not so interesting, so it might be just an excuse for a cheap B5 taskmaster, which at 48 base is not so problematic IMHO. Anyway, I don't see a problem having TM in a riot FT, I plan to convert one to be an ex-riot boss, I just need to get the last pieces (Some extra head) and get the taskmistress

    in overall, everything else got "standard N4 changes", so no problem with them. Maybe when BJC gets checked in about 2-3 years, the issues with religious troops are checked and we get also some extra units (like linkable with TK morlock-like units)
     
  4. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Except the Morlocks would not be regular, as I mentioned. So it would be pretty limited. You have to break the link to use their irreg orders, so basically it is limited to moving up and releasing them at the enemy as a screen / distraction, as described in the fluff.

    You can do much better / worse shenanigans already, even just with Koalas (eg repeater + Koala with Morans)
     
    loricus likes this.
  5. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    Since I am a huge fan of Sineaters, I'd like to add the following:
    • give Sineaters Sixth Sense to make these dedicated ARO-troopers at least comparable to some cheerleaders that are camping in a fireteam without any special skill.
    • alternatively Sineaters could get something like X-Visor or 360° Visor or at least Forward Deployment 4" so they can get a better Position during deployment.
    Without anything added they are just no option. With not being able to really fight during the active turn, they should at least be good during the passive turn. But right now, any given fireteam with a somewhat decent front man (and I am not even talking about something like Kamau or now Bolt MSR or Grenzer MSR) does a better Job in ARO and is worthwhile during active turn.
     
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  6. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Tbh I'm not sure why they didn't just fold Neurocinetics into Total Reaction, given all the similar things they merged. But I agree.
     
  7. Lucian

    Lucian Well-Known Member

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    But still, If they stay like 6 pts a piece that would be a great bargain to buff burst on taskmaster and add some DZ deterrent (which will not be impetious due to fireteam).
     
  8. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    Definitively NO
    If you want your fix of Lt2 then go play Morat, IA, CA or RTF. Nomads have an unwritten red line: no command skills bar NCO.
     
  9. SpectralOwl

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    Mostly I'm just hoping link bonuses get attacked with a hacksaw. Almost everything in Bakunin looks much more internally competitive without those crazy free buffs in the picture, and the Sectorial looks a lot better when compared externally. CB clearly aren't happy with current links so I have hope.

    As for actual changes to Bakunin profiles that I'd like?
    -Kusanagi counts as Moira. (enables old Haris and other small links)
    -Sin Eater gains Shock Immunity. (so you can do a higher-powered expensive version of the Engineer-Reaktion Zond, at least)
    -Moirae and Healers get minor CC buffs and improved Dodge. (give those CCWs a use and help differentiate from other over-optimised stuff)
    -Moira Hacker gets an Upgrade. (there's literally no reason to take a Moira Hacker beyond looks with Custodiers joining the link)
    -Throw Lizards a bone; letting them be LT could be fun. (they're still just really boring and awful, especially with improved HI linking)
    -Throw Wolff out an airlock and replace him with somebody more Nomad. (enough with the flubbernucking Merc Characters, CB!)
     
  10. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I feel like the new Bakunin is actually really good and that the issues highlighted in this thread aren't really issues.
     
    Master Efialtes likes this.
  11. Lucian

    Lucian Well-Known Member

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    Aren't really issues? Are you serious? Bakunin looks seriously half-baked right now.
    It is mostly solid, yes. But the Observance just feels forgotten compared to other stuff. There's little change in their profiles, they stayed pretty much the same as they were in last edition. They were lacking in N3, and they are lacking now. They seriously need a profile revamp altogether to be on the level with the rest of Bakunin.
     
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  12. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Does it? I think it looks totally fine.

    The Custodiers are great, that you can now form a mixed link of Custodiers, Moiras and Healers is great... they are still very effective gunfighters and their traditional weakness (warband spam) is now much weaker due to tactical window. Zappers on all Moiras are also pretty awesome, with all the TAGs and HI running around these days, we'll want those!
     
  13. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Sure, but the edition changed drastically around them. While I would have really liked to see bigger changes, not being Hackable is a big deal for more elite units in N4.

    Also, the Moiras only went up by the cost of the extra Skills and gear they got, while most Medium Infantry went up in price in addition to any gear changes.
     
  14. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Can you point some example of units that were underused (Because they were seen as bad/expensive) that got increased in points apart from paying for extra things, and that also are seen now as "good units"? moiras were bad in N3 because they retained n2 costs. Now they get new things but have to pay for them, so still retaining the n2 costs, and I think that, if that were to happen in other factions, the reaction would be the same. And that is happening too to other 3 units (prowlers at least got a BTS increase with no point change in one of the profiles so is not so bad on them)

    I cannot see how the edition changed "drastically around them". Yes, it has changed drastically, but not for MI, but for HI and TAGs. TAGs were almost not used, so it ok for them, but as a standard, HI were way more used and better than MI, now the differences are even more. I think a lot of people are forgetting that n3 hacking was not so good in the first place, and that now, HI have a discount, so I cannot see that argument as just a blind justification. We will see the meta in a few months, but not being hackable means not much when hackable brings a heavy discount (higher than what hacking cost in some units)

    but well, we will see. In n3 BJC had not so good numbers, and main edition changes seem that only affected 2 allready used units, so I cannot see how this is so good
     
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  15. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Morlock trainer
    Warcor

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    Good man, Hellois, good man.

    Taskmasters together with Riot Grrls always felt off and I can't get behind the reasoning to put them into a Riot Grrl team, won't field that combo. Personally the only Fireteam I'd allow for Taskmasters (apart from the Duo) is a Haris with Taskmasters / Moderators.

    Then why not give her Inspirational Leadership and Lt. (+1 Order)? That would make her really interesting. Also I thought Kusanagi was always a Moira considering her unit logo.

    Would be cool, since that would boost my 2nd CG with an extra order.
     
  16. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    Nah, I don't want them to have Total Reaction. I like the restrictions of Neurocinetics. And I like the fluff behind Neurocinetics and the Sineaters. But I don't like that the restrictions feel like they are not worth it.

    For instance in Bakunin the Sineater should feel like a straight improvement over the Reaction Zond. I mean it is THE ARO-specialist. But it doesn't. The possibility to buff the zond as well as the two unconscious states makes players take the Zond even in the home sectorial of the Sineater.

    Because the Sineater doesn't do anything during active it should, for around the same cost (around 30 points and 1.5 SWC vs. around 30 points and 15. SWC), do almost the same that the Kamau MSR does in reactive inside the full fireteam. The restrictions of Neurocinetics would be offset by the advantage of not having to take a whole fireteam do deliver the ARO-performance (and not bringing 5 orders with it).

    THIS would make the Sineater feel like it really is THE ARO-specialist.
     
  17. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Which if true is a problem, given MI were already problematic due to costing a lot compared to how easy they are to kill in N3. A problem which making them 4-4 and more expensive doesn't fix, and is exacerbated by better more expensive stuff getting cheaper, making them comparatively an even worse deal unless they have some individually very strong skill combination (eg Marksmanship and a Sniper rifle), and can be taken individually together with non MI.
     
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  18. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    as an outsider looking in, ive always had an interest in bakunin but never pulled the trigger - with the n4 update i just might.....
    though i would need some suitable looking proxies for the old terrible looking minis.....
     
  19. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    They actually seem great in N4. Just a bit uneven - some things amazing others a bit left behind.
     
  20. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    absolutely. My only wish is the reverends got more link options
     
    Hachiman Taro likes this.
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