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Multiple troopers in CC

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Rocker, Jan 12, 2020.

  1. Rocker

    Rocker Active Member

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    I have two troopers in base to base with an enemy trooper and they are both in the same fireteam. If I activate the fireteam and strike with my model A in CC, the opponent may choose to either hit trooper A (ftf) or my trooper B (we each roll normal rolls). If I instead cancel the fireteam before the order, I can force my opponent to make ftf vs trooper A? Correct?

    This cc interaction with fireteams seems strange to me. It makes it worse to be in a fireteam than otherwise.
     
  2. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    If a Fireteam is attacking in CC (wiki)
    • Link leader is attacking with bonuses of +1B + PH per other member in base contact
    • Defender may ARO vs any model (not sure how ML4 would react)
      • If VS leader, normal F2F role
      • if vs Non-leader, uncontested
    If you break the link (no Coordinated order)
    • Only attacker attacks with no bonus
    • Defender can only ARO vs attacker
    I find the CC fireteam rules a little odd also, it get really weird when you have 2 fire teams facing each other. Especially when only the leader can ARO and you have multiple different clusters. It happened to me once and we got the rules completely wrong, only realizing it after the match. But in general a single defender being ganged up on by a link has 2 choices. (A)Hold out as long as possible and hope they run out of order. (B) accept the lose, but try and take someone out with them.
     
  3. Rocker

    Rocker Active Member

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    Even without fireteam you get +1B per friendly model in b2b. You lose out on +1PH.
     
  4. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    Remember that fireteams and Coordinated orders can get into close combat much easier than single models because they provoke less AROs, have higher burst with BS attacks and have more dice in close combat.
     
  5. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    A follow-up question which I still am confused about:
    If one of the Fireteam members is Engaged, can the rest of the Fireteam Move in order to join the same close combat action? Do I just choose another troop to be the Fireteam Leader, declare Move and then CC Attack if I reach BtB?
     
  6. Rocker

    Rocker Active Member

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    Yes. I'd play it as the fireteam declares short skill move (anyone can be team leader, including the guy already in cc. He won't be able to move though and will perform idle instead). If the team leader is in cc after movement, you can declare cc attack, otherwise not.
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    In a Coordinated Order, you declare a sequence of skills for all 2-4 models which they will follow as best they are able.
    In a Fireteam, you declare a sequence of skills for the Leader which the other models will follow as best they are able. If your Leader is Engaged, you can not declare Move on them, so either have the Leader fight their way out or assign a different Leader to the Fireteam. Remember that when activated, a Fireteam member provokes ARO and that Idle also triggers Mines.
     
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  8. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    Hmm, what about this:
    Order #1: A Triad of Makauls activates and declares its first Short skill: Move, with one Makaul (not the Triad Leader) stomping loudly (and thus not using Stealth). The Triad Leader Makaul reaches BtB with Achilles, who is affected by the Eclipse Smoke template and thus cannot see the Makaul. Achilles is obliged to declare its ARO and declares the only thing possible: Change Facing. The Triad then declares its Second Short Skill: CC Attack.
    Order #2: The same Triad activates again, but now the Triad leader is another Makaul, and declares Move as its first Short skill, and this time both remaining Makauls reach BtB with Achilles. The Makaul who was Engaged with Achilles from the previous order cannot Move and thus his Short Skill turns into Idle (which he performs without using Stealth, I guess). Achilles is obliged to react against the Makaul he is already fighting and declares CC Attack. The Leader Makaul declares CC Attack as well, getting bonuses for having extra 2 Fireteam members in CC (+2 PH-based DMG and +2 B).

    Since Achilles is obliged to react against the first Makaul, is he obliged to make all his CC Attacks against that Makaul as well if the player controlling the Achilles decides to use MA L4? (NB: I'm not asking about how Stealth interacts with ARO, I am perfectly aware of how that works)
     
    #8 n21lv, Jan 14, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  9. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    #1: Yes, you can freely attack Achilles while he does a Chance Facing. The Eclipse Grenade has nothing to do with it though. The use of Stealth and walking in from out of LoF is the important part. This trick is also possible and particularly devastating when done by a Kanren that has madtraps. Bait ARO with madtrap and slice with a monofilament weapon versus a Change Facing.

    "A trooper with Stealth that declares a Short Movement Skill or Cautious Movement within the Zone of Control of one or more enemies but outside their LoF does not grant AROs to those enemies, even if he reaches base contact with them."
    http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Stealth

    #2 Same idea as last one, provided they walk into CC from out of LoF and with Stealth, Achilles will not be able to ARO against them on the first short skill. Achilles will be forced to ARO versus the one that is already in BtB. You active Makaul will get +2B, +2PH for its attack. You cannot split burst in ARO, even with MA4. You will effectively trade your trooper that is already engaged for an unopposed B3 attack.
     
  10. Rocker

    Rocker Active Member

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    This interaction with stealth, ARO and multiple troopers as was explained in the latest FAQ is considered abusive in my local meta. If you play it like that here you are considered a bad person ;)
     
  11. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    I wasn't asking about the interaction of Stealth and forcing an ARO, the question was solely focussed on the Order #2.
     
  12. Rocker

    Rocker Active Member

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    Yes. See Diphoration's answer above.

    Does this situation come up in your meta?
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I do not think we have a definite answer on whether or not you can have troopers with Stealth forgo its use when the skill declaration of the Fireteam makes use of the skill.

    I would say Order 1 is only correct if the secondary loud-mouth is incapable of Stealth, otherwise the Makaul should be obliged to declare the same skill sequence as the one that moves into CC, meaning also making use of Stealth.
     
  14. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    Not really, because almost no one played Tohaa or anything that resembles a Triad. I just came up with this idea to deal with Achilles and the likes. Other than that I have no qualms with this as it seems perfectly realistic to me.
     
  15. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    I don't think so, because using Stealth has nothing to do with the order being declared:
    Stealth is an automatic optional skill, just like Camouflage.
    So if the link leader does not have Camo,
    no member of the fireteam is allowed to use its Camouflage during an order?
     
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  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Fireteam leaders never have Camo.

    I'm re-hashing an opinion IJW voiced prior to the current FAQ on mixed Fireteams and Hacking - which is specific about one trooper not having Stealth (not having it, not not using it)
     
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