1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra PolĂ­tica de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

multiple camo minelayers during deployment

Discussion in 'Rules' started by geekgrrrl, Oct 2, 2018.

  1. geekgrrrl

    geekgrrrl New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2018
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hi all,

    I did search but couldn't find any threads that specifically address the question, so apologies if I missed them.

    I often run 3 zeros in my Bakunin list - two minelayers and a third specialist, usually a hacker or FO, depending on my needs. I'm pretty good at judging distances, so I usually deploy them so that there is less than 8 inches between any two, to hide which tokens are the mines and which ones are the three zeros. In my last game against a regular opponent he complained that I had to check ZoC, and that I could only do so between each minelayer and its mine, effectively outing the third. Is this correct? Every token was between 6-7 inches from the next, which I felt was pretty obvious, and we have always played it thus previously.

    I'm no expert on Infinity so I didn't argue the matter, but having dug through forums and the wiki, the coherency entry states that you CAN check a fireteam's coherency during deployment but that you MUST check it on activation or ARO and suffer the negatives if the members aren't coherent. Does the same apply to deployable weapons, and if so, what is the negative consequence of illegal deployment?

    Also, can my opponent compel me to check ZoC if it is clearly legal?
     
  2. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    1,860
    Likes Received:
    2,348
    I don't believe the rules actually compel you to check ZoC of your minelayer at any point. you just have to be certain they are within 8 inches when you deploy.

    logically, you are only deploying 5 camo tokens. your opponent shouldn't have any clue what they are. what your opponent thinks they are is merely a guess. Coherency doesn't apply for deployables.

    your opponent cannot force you to tell you which camo token is a mine and which is a minelayer. that is all private information, as every camo token should be treated as the same thing.
     
    Icchan likes this.
  3. Randomcallsign

    Randomcallsign Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2018
    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    145
    I was under the impression you could check coherency and measure as much as you want DURING deployment. If you're opponent REALLY wanted to be a stickler (read: obnoxious) you could just measure 8" from everything and deliberately mislead.
     
  4. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    885
    Likes Received:
    1,303
    Yeah this sounds like someone trying to weasel extra info out of you to me.
     
  5. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,134
    Likes Received:
    7,324
    For one thing, your opponent won't even know you're using Minelayer until after deployment.
     
    ev0k and chromedog like this.
  6. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    391
    I'm not so sure. The reason is without ever measuring, what happens on the off chance you did put it slightly passed 8"?

    I personally think that by playin it safe and so should be fine within, but if it is close to the 8" is required to check. Im pretty bad at guessing distances and so as such the 7" i would probably think is close and ask if either is minelayer to double check if in ZoC

    I am a bit hesitant to say he is entirely wrong. Nothing in the rules let's you skip measuring except social contract and ZoC checking is public and that you have to ensure the rules are abided by.

    So sadly trying to hide 3 camo with 2 mine layers sometimes means the odd man out will be found out by the ZoC check.
     
  7. DFW Ike

    DFW Ike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2018
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    218
    Is there anything to stop you from putting extra camo tokens down while you're setting up in deployment, but then picking up the ones that aren't actually anything when you're done deploying?
     
  8. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    391
    That is prohibited as no rules allows you to. Like saying you roll for infiltration but having no model that is doing it.
     
    xagroth, tox and colbrook like this.
  9. ev0k

    ev0k Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    307
    Likes Received:
    329
    I'd say that anything that is not explicitely prohibited is legal, unless stated otherwise. Just read the discussion about the engaging models ending the order stuck to a wall...
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,867
    Likes Received:
    7,306
    The game simply won't work well unless you can trust your opponent to not intentionally break the rules. Just ask your opponent to turn around so you can check some hidden information and/or deploy hidden deployment markers and make measurements to ensure you're within limitations when your opponent's back is turned.
    You can't write rules like this. It's impossible. Example: nowhere does it say I am not allowed to make changes to your army list.
    The reason this works is that you have been granted permission to do this through various rules and we'd like CB to through an errata or FAQ remove some of those permissions.
    Just like KingInYellow writes, this is prohibited. You must also note that a minelayer's mine must be placed at roughly the same time as the minelayer themself, so you might end up in management hell if you start doing this.
    This deployment sequence is one way a very attentive opponent can use to reduce the gamble of mine deployment - and also a reason why units like Ryuken-9 have limited use in mine roulette.
     
  11. ev0k

    ev0k Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    307
    Likes Received:
    329
    Witch is about exactly what i'm saying : nowhere was it stated that you could end the order stuck to a wall, but various rules added together did'nt prohibit you for doing so, hence the discussion. It's clearly a case of "was not clearly prohibited so can do".
     
  12. geekgrrrl

    geekgrrrl New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2018
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    2
    Thanks so much for the feedback everybody.

    There definitely wasn't any malice in his query - really just both of us wanting a fair game. We've been learning the rules playing together over the last year or so, and I've only recently switched to Nomads from Pan-O, so it hasn't really been a question up till now.

    I read a bit more, and further down in the Coherency Wiki page there is the following paragraph:

    To make the game faster, in those situations in which it is clear and evident that Coherency is kept (when the troopers are close to the Reference Trooper, and clearly inside his Zone of Control), it is not necessary to perform a Coherency Check, unless the adversary asks for it."

    Going by you guys' comments, that would seem to only apply where your opponent has access to information, or more specifically, to fireteams and synced troops. As MiketheScrivener points out, your opponent shouldn't even know you're running minelayers.

    1. If he or she does suspect, can he ask for you to check ZoC as pointed out in the above, and
    2. If so, could I check ZoC between ALL my camo tokens to hide their identities? That would seem to conflict with post #10 in the thread below:

    Also, what happens if I deploy a mine, we don't check ZoC, and it does later turn out the mine was out of bounds? Is there a ruling somewhere or does it come down to sportsmanship and player agreement?

    Thanks all. Sorry for belabouring the point, just trying to clear it up as those zeros often form a key part of my battleplan, and I need to know that I've been playing them correctly. :sweat_smile:

    Simone
     
    #12 geekgrrrl, Oct 3, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2018
    MikeTheScrivener likes this.
  13. geekgrrrl

    geekgrrrl New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2018
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    2
    Oh cool. I can do that? :grin:
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,867
    Likes Received:
    7,306
    And I'm saying your taking entirely the wrong message away from that discussion. The placement of the model has been allowed due to changing of what "base to base contact" mean, but this does not in any way shape or form mean that something has to be clearly prohibited to prevent you from doing it.

    It's like a school principal making concessions for kids to shoot footballs on a blind brick wall of the school building and then later a parent arguing that "well, you didn't also explicitly disallow them from shooting balls at windows that's on the wall, so this is your fault"

    Yes and no.

    This is not within the scope of the rules at all, but it's common practice within the community to ask their opponent to turn around so they can photograph where the Hidden Deployment troopers are located. Call it a house rule to make the game run more smoothly.
     
  15. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,229
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    You cheated so it comes down to player agreement or, lacking it, referee decision.

    In such a situation, I will ask my opponent to move his mine in a position closer to its owner starting point
     
  16. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,013
    Likes Received:
    728
    I probably understand that the mine fails somehow and I will remove it without any harm to my opponent and probably I ask about the same consideration. But it depends too much if I believe that it is or not a honest mistake. I have to say that I will be less permissive with someone who play a lot of camo markers, because in this case you can make a really mess. But in a Tournament probably the referee have the last words, more If my opponent and I don't catch an agreement.

    Back to your original question I never ask to my rivals to check the coherency of camos, I will do only if I'am really really sure that they are make a mistake and usually I warn him about this in order to avoid future problems. And usually no one ask me neither.
     
  17. geekgrrrl

    geekgrrrl New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2018
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    2
    Thanks so much for all the feedback everybody. It has definitely, if not entirely cleared up the question, given us a variety of approaches to it. I think with the RAW, there probably isn't a 100% clear resolution to this, but the options you've discussed on thread provide a framework for an agreement of some sort.

    Hehe. I always go on to the 40k players how clean and concise Infinity rules are, but I guess every ruleset has its side-cases. ^_^
     
    Daniel Darko likes this.
  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    3,739
    Likes Received:
    4,216
    Personally if I screw up Coherency I remove the mine without it triggering.

    The Mine and Minelayer need to get deployed 'at the same time'. What this means is "during the same Deployment step" (unless you Infilitrate the Minelayer across the halfway in which case you need to put the Mine down prior to rolling).

    Nothing stops you putting 5 Camo tokens down, measuring coherency between all of them and then recording which is which. ;)

    You're allowed to move markers and troopers around as much as you want. So playing metaphorical three card monty is legal (and no less of a dick act than asking your opponent to check minelayer coherency so you can work out which can't be a mine).
     
    ev0k likes this.
  19. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    391
    You can only check coherence between models that use it during deployment, you cannot just indiscriminately measure between models.

    You get measurements of you and your opponent's deployment zone, and 4/8" up and half way line. You cannot use blast template nor just measure as you see fit.
     
    inane.imp and Mahtamori like this.
  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    3,739
    Likes Received:
    4,216
    Yes. Nothing stops you changing those models after you measure coherency though. With markers this means just recording a different set of marker to marker/mine assignments.

    Normally I don't advocate doing this, but if an opponent was forcing me to measure coherency to work out what marker was potentially a mine I would.

    The best option is to ask them to turn around and check it then. It also may convince them you have a HD Trooper.
     
    MikeTheScrivener likes this.