1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

MSV2 sniper poll

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by zapp, Jun 29, 2019.

?

Do you think the addition of strong MSV2 sniper models to cheap core linkteams was a good decision?

Poll closed Jul 6, 2019.
  1. Yes

    41 vote(s)
    44.1%
  2. No

    52 vote(s)
    55.9%
  1. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    425
    Likes Received:
    627
    Do you think the addition of strong MSV2 sniper models to cheap core linkteams was a good decision from a game designer perspective?
    Its half a year now since the Kamau and HaiDao are available, so we all should have played with or against such a linkteam. Try not to argue too much from a factions standpoint but rather from a perspective of how that changed the game.
    Feel free to express your thoughts about your decision in the thread below.
     
  2. Kreslack

    Kreslack See you Space Cowboy...

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    278
    Likes Received:
    428
    I'd lump the MSV2 Khawarij to that list too. He's just as egregious an offender and worse his link can supply their own smoke via Ghulam.

    I'm glad only the 'multirifle Aquila' can join links, cause he sure didnt need any more bonuses.

    MSV2 has no business in cheap mixed links. Unless it's the junk troops carrying it. (Points to Brawlers) the elite killers dont need to be made even better. The msv2 should be an incentive to take a link of those good but expensive troops, not just cherry pick the best one into a squad of easily replaceable mooks.
     
    Civilized Barbarian likes this.
  3. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,456
    Likes Received:
    5,004
    I think giving armies without smoke the abillity to effectively aro vs armies that trivially put down smoke was a good idea yes
     
  4. smog

    smog Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    188
    Likes Received:
    252
    This is a good point. MSV 2 in cheap links isn’t just given to any army, they have clearly been given to a few armies that have definitive weaknesses.
     
  5. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    443
    Likes Received:
    421
    I don't think cheap anything to pad out a fire team was a good idea.
     
  6. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,810
    Likes Received:
    5,901
    I'd like to see a third option, "it depends". I choose "no", but mostly because the current lineup is pretty uneven, often overly complex and counterintuitive.

    Additionally, what strong linkable units with MSV2 actually block, is the brute force approach. You can't simply force your way through a unit with MSV2+, good BS, SSL2, maybe Mimetism or NWI, and a decent weapon. You need to use actual tactics - sneak around, eliminate weaker links in the team, whittle the threat down.
     
    Sedral and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  7. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

    Joined:
    May 5, 2017
    Messages:
    2,012
    Likes Received:
    6,522
    Every army has available counters to MSV2 snipers. Most players just haven't learned to employ them yet.

    A year ago, MSV2 was considered by many to be overpriced.
     
    Solar, Zewrath, TheRedZealot and 12 others like this.
  8. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,865
    Likes Received:
    1,878
    Exactly. Swings and roundabouts. New thing comes along, “it’s the end of the game!” Time passes, people adapt, etc.
     
  9. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    1,955
    Likes Received:
    2,546
    Couldn't agree more.
    Every army has answers to the linked MSV sniper – forcing players to think a little harder is never a bad thing
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  10. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2018
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    837
    "Totally fair and balanced" insist the PanO players haha. What a shock!

    Guess we will see you two playing CHA into VIRD at up coming major tournaments then.

    Show us how it's done ;)
     
    Hecaton likes this.
  11. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

    Joined:
    May 5, 2017
    Messages:
    2,012
    Likes Received:
    6,522
    Easy. Two Caterans, Scot Guard missile coordinating with Wallace every turn (that's an Australia special btw, no credit to me.) Uxia suicide run. Work a Cameronian up the table. Or all of the above.

    The coordinated order is something every army can do. Coordinate 3-4 guns with decent ammo types and get it done, even vs a Kamau.
     
  12. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,456
    Likes Received:
    5,004
    Great bait mate......
     
    AngryPanda and Hachiman Taro like this.
  13. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,456
    Likes Received:
    5,004
    Lol and i know who came up with the idea haha. Personally I was more a proponent of other techniques, but cant argue with his idea ;)
     
  14. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2018
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    837
    Lol

    Oh sorry it really is that easy though? Silly me. Tell you what maybe @barakiel can send me a selfie with his satellite winners trophy playing into VIRD top table with those strats to remind me of my shame.

    And if you like you can play your CHA into me playing VIRD this week to demonstate how easy it is? Should be trivial since I've literally never played VIRD and its so easy anyway. Loser admits they're wrong and buys beer.

    Actually, or how about CHA for inter then?!?! Brilliant!!!

    Lol
     
  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,739
    Likes Received:
    4,617
    MSV2 in fireteams is ok, it just shouldn't be a matter of padding out a fireteam with Fusiliers to support a Kamau.

    And actually I daresay the problem is the combination of Mimetism + MSV 2.
     
    #15 Hecaton, Jun 30, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
  16. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    425
    Likes Received:
    627
    I opted to leave out that option because "it depends" is the answer to everything. I wanted to force a decision and hopefully some thoughts and discussion.

    I for myself voted "No", because I have the opinion this kind of linkteam is too dominant for its costs. I mean its never bad. Yes, some armies have reasonable priced options, in both point costs and orders, to mitigate the strength of these linkteams, but many armies sometimes need to build their lists around these kind of enemies or need to avoid them completly. Which is, depending on table setup, not always possible.

    I voted "No", because there is no skill involved in forcing your opponent to play around your linkteam. So I ultimately I find it kind of boring to field such link. You can argue that this is my personal problem, but if many people feel the same, this would be bad from a game-design perspective. This is why I put up the poll. If no one feels like this, then its fine and I have to cope with it.
     
    sackofowls and Commoner1 like this.
  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,436
    Likes Received:
    2,633
    Yeah MSV2 links have been a thing for a while, the Mimetic MSV2 core link is new though and probably a bit much.

    On the other hand though I'm also in the Dakinis are borderline stupid camp too so take what you will from that.
     
    Tourniquet likes this.
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,739
    Likes Received:
    4,617
    I'd agree with that, too, to a limited extent. They're both math-breaking fireteams; one subtle difference with the Dakinis is they don't have pistols and so you can win FtF rolls if you get close, and can be hacked, and are generally overshadowed by the midfield camo crew that OSS brings to the table.
     
    DukeofEarl and xagroth like this.
  19. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,810
    Likes Received:
    5,901
    Dakinis don't have MSV2 (unless we count Devas), can't go prone, they're in general easier to bypass than Kamau sniper. They're outright nasty when supported by Apsara and/or support hacker, but still, they don't provoke as much protest as the Kamau does.

    There are more units that fall into this category and don't show up in complains. Devas can have a linkable MSV2 as well. Djanbazans were out there for ages. Even Haidao isn't as problematic. Kamau is the main problem, because - as @zapp said - it's so easy to block a fire lane with one. Granted, we could always do so with a TR remote, but those are much less of a toolbox, have obvious vulnerabilities there to exploit, and their deployment requires more thought.

    But, again, it can be played around. Flanking, AD, Coordinated Orders - the tools are out there, for those willing to use something other than brute force.
     
  20. CAnon

    CAnon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2018
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    57
    Ramah has definitive weaknesses? :thinking_face: