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Morats Strengths, Weaknesses, and Revamp ideas N4 Edition

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by WiT?, Dec 29, 2021.

  1. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Morats have typically received a “how to fix Morats” thread at least once or twice per edition, and I feel it is time to revisit this proud tradition in N4. This thread will be a location to showcase some ideas that a few members on the Infinity discord got together and created as possible solutions to what we percieve to be issues with the Morat Aggression Forces sectorial. Please feel free to chime in, to comment on these ideas, post your own ideas, or even if you disagree, though I ask that you keep all conversation civil!

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    While they got improvements across the board in 4th edition, it is quite a popular belief amongst many (not all, but many) players that the Morat Aggression Forces are somewhat lackluster. In fact, one of the main pieces of advice that you will get in the Combined Army discord right now is “don’t play monke if you are playing competitively”. While not everything is about being top tier competitive at all times, I am of the opinion that no army should be allowed to lag significantly behind in capabilities!

    So myself and a few others on the Infinity Discord - including Doink, Khavrion, Ryanj4043, and Sharrankar - to try and hammer out some ideas of what could possibly bring Morats into a better place in the current edition. got together and hammered out some changes to Morats over a few weeks. I would like to share these ideas with the community, and see what they think!

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    I want to start this conversation off on a positive note. Lets look at some good things that Morats get!
    • Morats have several methods to generate multiple orders from a single model, namely Tactical Awareness Suryats, LT (and LT+1 Order) with NCO, and LT+1 Order with Strategos on Kornak. Kornak in particular allows Morats to reach 12 orders in one combat group which is a solid and rare capability and something that distinguishes them from vanilla Combined Army.

    • Suryats are solid HI who are resistant to HI countermeasures, such as hacking, AP ammo, and even to an extent close combat.

    • One of the best 'HI turrets' for a castle link team in the form of an MSV1 HRL Suryat in a team of Vanguards

    • As of just a few days ago, the Tyrok as a midfield combat unit. While we are uncertain as to if it is an ARMY bug, it may be that MAF gets exclusive access to the Taryot with jawbrute peripheral.

    • Lots of smoke access - Daturazi, the partial-wildcard Anytat with smoke grenades, and the Rasyat

    • A cheap order pool of Combined Army Drones that gives three orders for 25 points
    Morats do bring some capabilities to the game table, and I personally found that Kornak was quite a strong draw to the sectorial. However, the general opinion is that this is not enough to make them a really compelling army.

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    So what are the issues, or perceived issues of Morats? Depending on who you ask, you might get some variation on the following themes;
    • Morats are supposedly an aggressive, combat orientated army. While they definitely have the weaknesses of such an army, they are lacking in options for aggression and options to be effective in combat.

    • Morats lack 'effective' capabilities in general. Visual mods, deployment skills, marker states, hacking, efficient specialists, strong gunfighters are just a few capabilities that we struggle to find in the MAF.

    • What few effective choices do exist in MAF, can often be deployed just as effectively in vanilla Combined Army. Looking at you, Daturazi and Rasyats!

    • Morats are heavily link-focused army, but most of the link teams are ineffective and whats left is merely "ok". Lots of expensive, 1W core link options which have historically struggled in this game. Units built under old and clunky design philosophies with limited wildcards, limited mixed links, and lots of overpriced dudes with redundant and expensive skills and basic gear.

    • Oznat and Hungries team is basically nonfunctional in this edition due to irregular orders not working for link teams. This was a major draw to Morats in the last edition, and it feels like Morats have not received much to make up for its loss.

    • Morats are extremely vulnerable to missiles given that they need to clump together and lack effective hackers to punish an overextended repeater. Given that this is a very popular and effective strategy at the moment, and can be quite a negative feeling to be on the recieving end of it, it would be better if they had some countermeasures.

    • They are just bland. Boring. They don't do very much and you give up a ton of capability to play them. They just don't feel like Morats to some people.
    Thats a pretty substantial list of issues right there. How could some of them be addressed? Our discussion group on discord got a draft of the army to a point where it seemed quite interesting and playable, and so I have taken this opportunity to share it to a wider audience on the forum. We'd love to hear your take on it!

    Instead of dropping everything all at once and risking information overload, I plan to post up this information in two lots. Hopefully there will be interesting discussion between my posts, but given the time of year and the general low level of activity on the forum at the moment that might not happen. Everything added after the initial post will be edited into the OP retroactively so you do not need to scour the thread to find the content.

    Finally, all opinions expressed here are my own and not necessarily those of others on the team of people who contributed to the rules. However, the opinions here are common opinions and often shared by others, and the changes here were generally developed by consensus by some or all members within our discussion group, hence why I will generally use the term "we" to refer to "our" decisions.

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    We came into this project with a few aims.
    • The first, obviously, was to make Morats 'stronger and more effective' - whatever that ended up meaning by the end of the project.

    • Secondly, there was an aim to give them 'more options for aggression', since they are pretty much limited to "a link team advances from their deployment zone" or "a Rasyat does Rasyat things", whilst in their fluff they are supposed strategic geniuses with a variety of surprising and aggressive tactics.

    • Third, we wanted to address their cost - Morats pay absolutely premium prices for mediocre profiles, so some changes needed to happen either to those profiles or someplace else in the list to make this faction work.

    • Fourth, some extremely ineffective units needed to be made capable of something. We wanted every unit choice to have at least some effective profiles or some role as a link team that wasn't totally redundant or ineffective.

    • Finally, we kept vanilla Combined Army in consideration with all changes. We were careful not to add a ton of extra tools to a very potent faction during our attempt to spruce up this one! Hopefully, nothing too nasty has slipped through the gaps.
    Ultimately, we decided to make alterations to Daturazi, Kurgats, Hungries, Oznats, Rodoks, Yaogats, Vanguards and Zerats. The first four will be covered in this initial post, and the second a little later.

    We left unchanged the ITS Bikers, Dr Worm, Anyat, Tyrok, Kornak, Raktorak, Rasyat, Raicho, Suryat Taryot, Remotes, and Kendrat. However, a few link teams for these units are alterated a little due to mixed link and wildcard changes in other units. With the exception of the Gaki and some guesswork for Peripherals, all points were calculated using my best (and limited) understanding of the point formula to give an idea of what the final profile would look like.

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    We added Fireteam: haris to Daturazi, and no other changes. Daturazi are perfectly good and capable units and a mainstay of the Morat Aggression Forces, as well as popular in Combined Army as well. But what they were lacking here was options. As a core, they suffer from redundancy in capabilities, as well as eliminating all other core options from your list. When taken solo, they are no better than in vanilla Combined Army, which is not ideal for such an iconic Morat unit. Simply giving them a Haris option makes them immensely appealing alongside a more expensive and capable core.

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    The Kurgat as-is is a bit of a mess. It is designed to be a sort of ‘combat engineer’, but it doesn’t fight well at all while paying a premium over basic engineers. This makes it ineffective at both roles, and necessitated a pretty large change. There is certainly an argument that the changes here do not go far enough, but by the end we were generally satisfied that the unit was a reasonable choice and gave some competition for Dr Worm.

    Like most Morats, the Kurgat seems to be designed for link teams, but these teams lack any compelling reason to be taken. This is due to a) a lack of interesting or effective loadouts and b) because the concept of paying for Engineer multiple times, in an army that has little use for engineers, is inherently not a very effective basis for a unit. To make effective Kurgat link teams would require a total overhaul of the profile, similarly to how the Caliban (aka, the Shasvastii Kurgat) got a total rework, which is beyond the scope of this project.

    Since the link team is not a feasible idea at all we removed the haris capability entirely and focused on creating a useful standalone engineer. The exception was the autocannon. This unit is pretty much unsalvageable as is! It was decided that the best way to make this a playable unit is to give it full wildcard. While giving expanded wildcard capability to all Kurgats is feasible, we decided to limit it to the autocannon. This is because all wildcards need to be carefully considered, and it was decided that the cost of adding wildcard on this specific profile was offset by making such a cool profile useful, and that giving out an expensive, SWC absorbing Kurgat Wildcard would not have as many potential knock-on effects as would any of the cheaper Kurgats.

    The other Kurgats were designed to be stand-alone engineer options, and particularly to be ‘combat engineer’ in a way that is in line with effective options in Infinity. This means less premium guns and high price tag, and more useful and combat orientated skills. This mostly meant minelayer, allowing Kurgats to get better use out of their mines and focus less on their expensive and mediocre guns. The cheaper minelayer was limited to MAF only, while Combined Army gets access to the minelayer on the premium profile if they wish to take them.

    A highly discounted, light shotgun Kurgat was created for MAF only, and a cheaper minelayer option as well. The cheaper options were limited to the MAF to both offset the generally high cost of Morats, to take into account the limited value of engineers in MAF, and limit the amount of bleed-over from this project into the vanilla Combined Army.


    The Kurgat also received a special MAF-exclusive Peripheral Servant with increased combat ability that can only be attached to them. The Jikininki combines the utility of a servant with some limited combat capability, at the cost of being larger and lacking mimetism. If you only want to repair, the standard slave drone is the way to go, but the Jikininki gives Morat players the ability to be more disruptive with their engineer than they otherwise might be.

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    OZNAT AND THE HUNGRIES

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    (Edit: Hungries are Impetuous)

    One of the big shifts we made for MAF was in the Oznat. It's original role of enabling a Hungries link is effectively dead, and there were a lot of ideas on how to give it a new purpose.

    Firstly, an attempt was made to fix the link. Gaki were made Regular and made MAF only. This is the only instance where we outright 'cheated' the points formula, though the peripherals are not more than guesses honestly. 4 point Gaki are not my favorite concept personally, but the rest of the group liked it, so we went ahead with it. This cost is offset somewhat by the re-addition of an Oznat requirement as Hungries had in the past and is based on Kuang Shi being 5 points.

    These Gaki, and some irregular but more capable Pretas, can join an Oznat to make a fireteam. It would be an interesting decision to make as to having regular orders for the team or an irregular fighter that brings templates. I still have some reservations about wildcards joining this link, but it will probably be fine given none of them are exceptionally powerful.

    The Gaki, other than becoming regular, recieved some adjustments to their capabilities. Their only real use currently is climbing walls, specifically to hit something like a Moran on top. They don't hit hard enough in this role, so giving their situational explode rule a bigger payoff seemed like a cool way to go about improving their effectiveness here.

    Preta used to be warbands with mines. This was removed due to issues about mine trigger rules. I believe that it would be totally fine to bring these back as an MAF exclusive warband. In the fluff, the EI is too cautious and removes the eggs (mines), but I could totally see Morats retaining them. To avoid them becoming far too capable, any Preta with mines loses it's direct template weapon.

    The Oznat gained partial wildcard, joining all links that Anyat has access to. She can also bring one Gaki into those links to reduce their cost and add some CC capability.

    In addition, the Oznat/Preta peripheral team was adjusted. The Preta in that team was much too expensive and brought down to two points below its basic cost. A Gaki, at a reduced peripheral cost, was added. The end result is something similar to the Uberfallkommando, with various ups and downs compared to that unit. To keep vanilla CA in check, the full Oznat peripheral team was only enabled for MAF, with vanilla getting a slightly discounted version of the current team.

    PART TWO
    In this section, we find most of the linkable options for MAF. This is just an accident of alphabetical order, but it does give it a bit of a theme.

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    We felt that Rodoks suffered the same issues as most Medium Infantry cores - they are too expensive to just sit back as a castle, but too vulnerable to move forward into the midfield. Rodoks also have something of a dated design, lacking the variety of tools we see in many links these days and generally being variations on ‘basic trooper with mimetism’.

    Rodoks stats were slimmed down a little, and the points used to give them a large dodge improvement - this ups their survivability, gives them a unique role of a dodging MI, and ties into their special maneuver gear theme. We stripped the combi rifle away from the Combi/LSG+1B to make a cheap filler profile that retained one of the more interesting elements of Rodoks, as well as made use of a badass model, and used this as the main way to reign in the cost of the team. After that, the LT gained +1 SWC as an incentive to use this risky and mediocre LT profile, and a Killer Hacker was added to support Morats hacking defense and to make sure that the combi rifle Rodok sculpt remained legal.

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    Morats, for an aggressive faction, really struggle to break defensive pieces like the Kamau, Grenzer, or even a defensive TAG. It was decided that the Sogarat would be where Morats would find their answer to these pieces.

    Because Morats are doggedly committed to non-mimetism, BS13 gunfighters, it was decided that it would be reasonable to give him Haris for the purpose of getting enough firepower to take these fights. While multiple Sogarats could be taken, realistically this would draw on MAF wildcards to reduce the price. If a link contains a Sogarat, that is an expensive model and a large footprint that they need to babysit. It also felt incredibly Morat to build a list around a huge Sogarat centerpiece. It may also be reasonable to allow him to join other links, particularly the Vanguard link, which could be a future change.

    We also added Immunity (DA+EXP) to help represent his enormous durability. This is also, coincidentally, the ammo type that his preferred targets will be using.

    Because he is so swole, and carries such a big axe, it was decided to increase his close combat with Martial Arts L1. But because he now had resistance to many forms of attack, his BTS was reduced to 3 to make him more hackable and vulnerable to EM and similar.

    This unit can now be relied on to be a massive… expensive… stone wall in the face of the enemy, resisting many avenues of attack though vulnerable to hacking, EM and similar.

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    Edit: It could be a solid change to make Vanguards 4-2 MOV, 3 ARM Medium Infantry similar to Grunts

    Vanguards are a premium price, but don’t deliver premium capabilities. While Veteran is useful, they compete with Daturazi in this price category and are hard to justify there. They are even outperformed considerably by a human Veteran line trooper! While Vanguards don’t need to be great, we felt they needed to at least not be the worst veteran line troops in the game.

    There is often believed to be a "rule of 14 points" for CA line trooper models, but we did not feel constrained by this rule. Morats are the result of (at least) two trends - outdated unit design (particularly N2 style link trooper construction), and the culmination of tiny cost inflations that add up. Forcing a vanilla line trooper to cost 14 points just "because" keeps Morats trapped in their lane for no good reason. While others might disagree with this, and it did feel weird to "break' this "rule", the end decision of our group was to go for a price decrease as the primary fix for the unit. I personally would be open to other ideas too but at the moment, am happy with the change.

    We also took the 1 SWC tax away from the basic LT in MAF, though it stays for vanilla CA. Then, to help with expensive Morat teams and give the Vanguard additional roles on the table, they were given the ability to allow one Vanguard to join any link team in the MAF - as long as that link team did not already contain members of our primary cost cutting wildcard, the Oznat and Hungries. This essentially means a Vanguard Paramedic for every link. If MAF are still not up to par after the initial changes, it could be worthwhile to add a few utility profiles to Vanguards to support them in this role.
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    Perhaps more than anything else, the Yaogat needed help. This unit was very difficult to try and ‘fix’ due to its extremely dated design philosophy. While a single Yaogat sniper can be a fine unit, the link team is extremely bad, due to a lack of capabilities and a core identity revolving around paying for MSV2 over and over again on troops that cannot use it well who have the same basic weapon loadout. Due to their being a Yaogats box of four members, it was decided to attempt to keep a core team of Yaogats viable… or at least as viable as possible. Out of all units, this one received some of the most extensive changes in terms of added capabilities.

    We drew on the fluff for inspiration for the changes to Yaogats. They are essentially war criminals (by human standards) who focus on clearing and protecting a battlezone for the rest of the army, and then move on to a trigger happy form of anti-guerilla warfare when the area is under Morat control. This justified a lot of defensive and anti-camo tech, which is very necessary in an army that is aggressively orientated and which struggles to fight mimetism and marker state in general.

    First, non-SWC Yaogats were addressed. Their MSV was downgraded for cost purposes, because MSV2 is expensive and random MSV2 combi rifles have marginal utility. The core filler troopers were replaced with a Sensor Dropbear Shotgun, and a Neurocinetic Combi with a number of launchers. Both of these profiles do something useful, rather than simply filling the team. They fit our idea of area defense and anti-camouflage capabilities, while leaning on the existence of a combi/panzerfaust sculpt as inspiration. It was felt that full neurocinetics may be excessive so it was capped at B3. All Yaogats were given booty, because this felt in line with their war-criminal status and the tendency of arrogant Morats to take trophies from the dead. It also gave MAF a booty capable unit which is nice given they lack bounty hunters.

    After that were minor tweaks. The +1 DAM Sniper was pretty pointless, so this was transformed into a rarer weapon - the plasma sniper. The Spitfire seemed very expensive so it’s SWC was reduced - this is not a super efficient platform for it so the premium felt unnecessary. Finally, the hacker was exchanged for a Killer Hacker, as the original hacker felt out of place and a Killer Hacker helps with the Morats weaknesses to hacking.

    The end result is still sketchy, but we felt it is more capable and certainly more interesting than the current Yaogats.

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    Before I talk about Zerats, I want to mention that the Tyrok was not released when we completed this design. It is possible that the Sync Zerat is unnecessary now, though honestly, I see no problem with retaining it.

    Zerats were generally considered to be pretty sub-par, though it was also considered acceptable for Morats to lack really efficient skirmishers. Their main issue stemmed from the Morat's lack of defensive capability in general - nothing can really stop aggressive units contacting their link teams and destroying them. Many of our changes were aimed at improving the Zerat in this role.

    While MIM-6 is nice, Zerats are not equipped to utilize it well, and it is quite a pricey capability. So Mimetism was reduced to -3, and Zerats recieved Decoy (1) as a form of trickery and midfield control. This felt like a good, hunting-themed way to increase the survivability of Zerats and their ability to delay an enemy attack heading to the Morat deployment zone.

    A SYNC Gaki profile was also added. This seemed like a great way to give MAF a dedicated combat Zerat, that could either chaff up an attack with its peripheral or go on the attack against enemy skirmishers.

    The red fury saw its SWC cost decreased, to be in line with its old MIM-3 cost.

    Finally, an Infiltration+6 option was added. This gives MAF another form of alpha strike piece. While the Zerat is not a strong unit, this piece is cheap enough that it can do some damage or harass the enemy at an efficient order cost.

    The final Zerat is still not an outstanding unit, but it fills some badly needed roles in MAF at a reasonable price.

    LINK TEAM REFERENCE PAGE

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    So, wondering what all of you think of these ideas? But also, I would like this to be a general Morats revamp discussion thread. Do you think Morats are struggling right now, or are they totally fine? If they need work, what would you change? Would you incorporate our ideas, or do you have some of your own?
     
    #1 WiT?, Dec 29, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2022
    Morray, Erbent, DaRedOne and 3 others like this.
  2. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    I was always drawn to Morats for the aesthetics and general concept, and love some GOOD and nice discussion, even if harder to find in here. Calling in @DaRedOne , our local Morat expert.
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Are the Gakis and Pretas missing Impetuous? Even if they have Impetuous, I think the price on Gakis FTO is... outrageously low (if you'll forgive a British style understatement)
     
  4. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, lack of impetuous is an error. Good catch.

    Generally I personally agree with your sentiment on the Gaki. The rest of the group considered it fine by drawing comparisons to Kuang Shi, which have a similar price with similar restrictions - explosion and a required controller, so we went with it. This was the only profile where the pricing system went out of the window so I feel a little uncomfortable about it.

    Would love to expand that conversation further here and see what people think.
     
    #4 WiT?, Dec 29, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2021
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I understand the idea that is driving it, but it is a GW style of points assignment by feel and fluff rather than CB's systemic. I'd estimate them to be about 9 points as presented when derived from Pretas (which still has the potential for absolutely insane power shifts of the sectorial). CC abilities tend to just pile on costs in CB's systems.
    (Oh, and I strongly suspect that either explode is quite expensive or that they intentionally didn't give Kuang Shi any discount for Impetuous to avoid too cheap orders)

    Did you guys get so far as playtesting?
    Btw, I was honestly expecting more adjustments to the vast amount of elite one wound infantry that Morats have.
     
  6. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, your not saying anything I didn't say honestly. I was originally worried about what cheap orders would do to the sectorial, but that was essentially their thing last edition and they were not broken. Personally I have greater issue with a nonsystematic points cost than I do with what Gaki regular orders would do to the faction.

    No, aim is to get community feedback first.

    The release is in two halves. All of those units have names in the later half of the alphabet.
     
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  7. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 May his passage cleanse the world.

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    Morats are straight forward and don't rely on vis mods. The problem is, viz mods are cheap and they have no real effective way to counter it. For ultimate soldiers, they must have skipped basic rifle marksmanship because their BS is generally terrible. Their main source of MSV is in really expensive, 1 W models. Only 2 models have sensor, one of them being the Oznat which generally isn't taken due the the nerf to gaki/pretas.
    Make Morats good at countering what they don't have.
     
  8. Doppelgganger

    Doppelgganger Well-Known Member

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    Nice job, but more than a how to fix i will appreciate an how to actually tryhard thems
     
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  9. Muad'dib

    Muad'dib Well-Known Member

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    Daturazi and Kurgat changes both seem reasonable to me. The Kurgat autocannon was one of my favorite morat models, so I would love to see it become a more viable unit choice.

    I don't feel that the Onzat changes are appropriate. Rather than try to model Hungries/Gaki off of Kuang Shi, I think it would be better to use antipodes as the template (if Ariadna can figure out how to control feral animals, so can the EI!). Morats suffer from lack of expendability - not a lack of orders - and I think having more disposable units that don't degrade your order pool when they die would be more beneficial (and avoids the issue of creating excessively cheap orders). I would instead give Oznat two types of profiles:
    • Oznat Sync w/ Sensor - 1 peripheral(sync) Gaki/Preta, give sync unit sensor as well
    • Oznat Controller - Combi, Smoke Grenade Launcher, take up to 3 Gaki/Preta as peripheral(control)
    • Maybe add an alternative FO option for one of the two base profiles
    Remove Gaki/Preta Fireteams in general. Maybe add a rule that says that Gaki/Preta models aren't considered allied models for the purpose of explode - so you can send a group of them in and set them all off. If you do that, I don't think you need explode (double action). I think the Oznat controller should be a MAF exclusive, along with the return of the shock mine Preta.
     
  10. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    My personal take on that, is that for Morat expendible models to matter, they need to be deployed ahead of the main force at the start of the game. I've found our link teams are easy fodder at close quarters, that they can only really defend themselves with mostly mediocre ARO (maybe the Suryat Rocket is better than mediocre), and we don't have good access to mines or cannon fodder to put in the way. We had a serious lack of midfield chaff pre-Tyrok, and I'd argue we still don't have enough with it, though to go from essentially nothing to a jawbrute is a big change.

    I quite like the idea of a hidden deployment, forward deployed Gaki. Can get in the way, or suddenly appear and take a run at someone. Real Aliens stuff.

    I also feel it makes more sense from a fluff perspective for an Oznat to be physically present to lead the pack of hungries as opposed to hiding at the back. More feral and instinctive than cool and radio-controlled. Maybe thats just me.

    Gameplay wise, anything that gets multiple slotless bodies on the table gets my whole hearted approval.

    Got any ideas? This thread is a forum for talking about Morat improvements in general and not just what is being presented in the opening post!
     
  11. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

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    Read it. Liked it. Way better than most 'How to Fix MAF' threads I've seen. Kudos.

    You did forget to mention the Sogarat, which is another model that's often very contentious.

    I liked most of your proposed changes, just not quite sure of the thing with Oznats. The hungries link as an order battery was something that allowed MAF to do this weird thing where we could play super expensive models without worry of being starved for orders, and losing that ability this edition did hurt us, so just getting it back with the added heavy hitters from N4 would already solve a lot of issues.

    However, one thing that bugs me A LOT about MAF are two unspoken rules:
    a) Our models cannot cost lest than 14 points;
    b) We cannot have camo;

    This is beyond the scope of your project, but I'd like to see MAF get stuff like holoechos and/or more MSV to compensate for the stuff above. I very much agree with you that our forces pay a premium for mediocre statlines, and this is what really cripples the army. We pay for a lot of fat.
     
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  12. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I never liked the hungries link as an order battery from either a theme/lore standpoint or from a mechanical one (eats up the fireteam slot), so I'm not all that sad to see it gone. However, MAF does still have some severe limitations as outlined above and can't use that crutch anymore.

    One of the things I've always wanted to see was expanding the Morat rule to include universal Number 2. It expands on their already existing Veteran ability, and extends their combat discipline from LoL insurance to fireteam coherency as well.
     
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  13. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Part two has been added to the OP

    I did forget to mention it, but we did not forget to attempt a fix. It just got lost in the list of other -at's that needed fixing lol.

    What would you propose exactly for Oznats?

    I did feel weird regarding that 'rule' (in quotations, since it is not official, not trying to be a dick lol) of 14 point cheerleaders. But it doesn't seem that relevant since 4th edition capped model count, and CA armies are all drone cheerleaders anyway. We break that rule with the Vanguard too. I've explained the reasoning in the OP. Would love to hear some ideas from you on how to approach a fix without breaking this 'rule'.

    Agreed. We add a little of this is part two. I wanted an MSV1 Suryat with B3 weapon like an MMR but it was voted down. It is kind of hard to insert MSV without invalidating Yaogats even further lol!

    Same. Mechanically a super-cheap core order battery is interesting. However, bloodthirsty monsters hiding at the back generating orders was a terrible flavor fail IMO so I don't miss it personally. The rest of the group that developed these profiles all seemed to remember it fondly though.

    That could be interesting, but it needs to be free. It would make the army much worse IMO if No.2 costs 1 point. However I've seen arguments that it is free based on models gaining or losing it between vanilla and sectorials with no price change. If it does have a cost, simply adding more NCO to random profiles is probably a better approach than taxing the points-tax faction with another mandatory skill.

    When a skill is forced on every single profile, I can see a strong argument for reducing its cost. Problem is there is no middle ground between 0 and 1 in this game
     
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  14. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

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    Reading it more now, I love the ideas for Rodoks and Yaogats, but I'm split on the following:

    Sogarats:
    Started well, but I really think these dudes need to go full HAM. I'd rather not give them Haris, give them wildcard instead, then buff these MFers out the wazoo. Veteran Kazaks get wildcard, and Krizas get to join 5-man links, so a full-on, balls to the walls, expensive as hell Sogarat with TI (just say 'fuck it', since you already gave it Immunity to begin with) would be the 'better' and 'fluffier' option.

    Zerats:
    I don't like the changes. I'd keep the profile as is. The problem with the zerat isn't her skillset or cost, is the fact she's alone in the middle of the table. In vanilla she has been working very well for me when paired with Calibans, Shrouded and Libertos in the midfield.

    Oznats:
    Okay, I'm gonna be the odd one out here and defend the hungries as mere order batteries. MAF is a very Top-heavy army, but being able to get 5 orders out of 48 points was pretty awesome. This allowed to have some expensive models in the field without worrying about order consumption, and I even ran 1 core teams in a 15 order army and it worked.

    What I would do is simply give Oznats back their Hungries Control Device and make it work like a lesser inspiring presence: As long as the hungries control device is on the table, hungries are regular. Maybe make it so not all Oznat profiles have it (the ones with synched models sure wouldn't have it) Also make the Hungries Control Device MAF only, of course.

    I would also give Oznats sensor as a built-in skill. This would probably increase their points cost a little, but considering their added flexibility it would be worth it.

    I actually like the proposed changes to hungries, but I'd make the changes above to Oznats. The way I see it, they work quite well as first turn missiles, and there's nothing wrong with a 50 point, large footprint hunting party you can run up the table and suicide or break up as needed.
     
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  15. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this. It was wildcard up until the last readthrough, where the popular consensus was haris only. Personally I like him as a huge centerpiece for the army. He has a giant footprint and needs babysitting, so I don't think it would be a problem myself.

    So you would suggest adding another Morat midfielder? We all found the Zerat pretty mediocre, would like to hear more from people that like the profile with MIM-6 and the added cost.

    Personally I'd love a minelayer specialist Zerat if we were keeping the more expensive template. There are a couple of other minelayer specialist midfielders who are all camoless, such as Morans. For me having a midfield mine is nearly as good as having additional profiles to choose from, but a pure minelayer is very mediocre.

    You are only the odd one out in this thread, I've seen a lot of people who liked the concept.

    There were Oznat iterations with Sensor across the board, but we ended up running sensor on a Preta instead. I would support a sensor Oznat too.

    Personally I feel that the blob as an aggressive unit would be pretty weak. Mostly because it is eating a *ton* of slots in a slot restricted game. It ends up essentially being uberfallkommando but 50 points and 5 slots, where all the pupniks cost you orders when they die. Maybe I'm too negative on it but it just doesn't feel good for me.
     
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  16. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I haven't been able to play N4, but I really liked the Zerat red fury when it was added in N3. It's a fairly distinctive profile that fills a role otherwise unavailable to a lot of infiltrators. I would also look to non-camo infiltrators that are popular with other armies for inspiration, such as the Moran Masai. A Zerat with a CrazyKoala or other peripheral weapon would give some valuable board control while not being a camo minelayer like you see everywhere else.
     
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  17. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

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    Yes, yes I would. The new Tyrok might already change how we see the zerat, as it adds in a slightly cheaper minelayer that can come in together with her. Plopping down a zerat and a pair of tyroks in the middle of the table or a tyrok and a pair of zerats is a whole different thing than just one or even two zerats doing nothing.

    Ideally, MAF needs a Kanren type infiltrator to round up the trio. An infiltrating model with Holoecho would add in another layer of threat and allow the zerat to shine on her own. As she is right now, she is pretty good at removing 1 wound annoyances from the table, permanently, and her kit does allow her to press buttons with enough efficiency. What she lacks is survivability, but that's not a problem if we have other models to work as layered defenses.
     
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  18. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    What about a completely different concept where the Hungries gain a S5 uber-developed brother beast with Infiltration, impetous, 2W CC beast for dirt cheap? Something NOT very difficult to kill but a good defense since it cannot be ignored as an attack vector on the Morat turn.

    A souped up Jawbrute, for about 10pts. Embrace the beast-tamers side of Morats, they are quite unique in that regard.
     
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  19. Urist

    Urist Well-Known Member

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    I am also excited about using the Tyrok in unison with the Zerats, but sadly they are AVA 1. I wish we could take a pair of them.

    It also seems like MAF is going OOP in April. Brand new Monke TAG, Hunter, and Prospector immediately met with sadness as the rest of the sectorial fades out. I better get my purchases out of the way fast.
     
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  20. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Where do we find that info? I'm a bit out of the loop.

    Did Monke TAG ever get a profile? Or is it literally a raicho or something?
     
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