Hi All, Been a member of the forum for a while, but this is my first thread. I live in Peru, where we have a really small meta. We're 6 guys and around 80% of my games are played against Tunguska or Operations. Needless to say, I get my ass kicked really bad each and every time I play against these two. It always seems that they field these really streamlined knight-destroying lists while I can't get my lists out of the experimental status. They field almost the same lists every time, except for minor changes, while I field lists made from scratch in the hopes that the new experimental list will work out. So far, apart from a single victory against Bakunin where my opponent chose a poor battle plan and executed it poorly, these experiments failed. And they failed badly. Maybe it's me. Maybe I've developed some kind of tunnel vision in regards to list making. Maybe I'm not thinking out of the box enough to overcome my list building blockage. Maybe I'm a crappy player who takes too many bad decisions during gameplay. Maybe my legendary crappy rolls have a part in this. Or maybe MO just plainly sucks. I refuse to consider this a reason for my persistent failures. For now. Anyway, this is the list I used to kick Bakunin's ass. Maybe the community can help me to improve my lists enough to at least, win 1 every 3 games against Tunguska or Operations. Rocketfest ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 FATHER-KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (1.5 | 49) ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15) ORDER SERGEANT MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 21) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 51) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (Fireteam: Haris, MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 36) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 32) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 32) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army Fireteams are pretty straightforward, FK+OS core, Joan+KoS duo, HK haris. Thanks in advance.
That's a solid enough list, but I'd be trying hard to get a HMG into the Hospitaller Haris. That probably comes at the cost of the Multi Sniper in the Order Sergeant Fireteam, but that's a cost you should be prepared to pay for a real attack option. If you aren't going to use the co-ordinated order from Joan (with two Fireteams making up 8 of your 10 models) and you aren't going to field a WarCor and Tech Bee in order to take advantage of her ability to farm cheap Regular orders, then I question her utility and would suggest that she is a waste in your list. If I was building something similar then it'd probably end up looking like: Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 FATHER-KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (1.5 | 49) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) ORDER SERGEANT Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) ORDER SERGEANT Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (Fireteam: Haris, MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 36) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Lieutenant MULTI Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 35) PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) GROUP 2 3 2 TRAUMA-DOC (Father-Doctor) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) SPEC. SERGEANT Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21) TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
Oh boy, OSS can be brutal against MO. Hacking + TO+MSV2 is just an excellent counter to most advantages MO has (good TO units and relatively good HI). Tbh I cannot think about good list atm. could you please post the Tunguska/OSS lists you usually meet ? Btw. are you aware that in the list you've posted you can relink Joan and Hospitallers (and Santiago) for a doom link ?
Following what AdmiralJCJF said, with just a small change, same list can be played with, imho, quite a lot of extra punching power: Triple Fireteam ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (+1 | 50) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) FATHER-KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (1.5 | 49) ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15) ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (Fireteam: Haris, MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 36) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 32) 7 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army You keep the 3 Fireteams. Duo with Joan (changing the Spitfire for a MULTI Rifle (there is a reason for it)) and the SKHD. Haris with 3 Hospitallers, this time you have the HMG which is giving that link a lot of power (B5 BS14-17, no joke). And you keep your core of OS with the FK with ML and thanks to changing Joan to the normal version, you can include the HMG in the Haris and have 2 OS with HRL. With those two small changes you have a super strong long distance defensive link with a ML and two HRL, and two fireteams that in each own way, can push flanks. Haris with the HMG and Joan by herself. For me, the only weak point, is the short number of specialists. You only have the SKHD and the Hospitaller Doctor. No FO, no Engineer (although you do hace D-Charges), no CoC...
Yeah, most of the times against OSS I find myself tied in infowar mini battles instead of shooting and cleaving. The KoS is often enough to keep hackers away, but it can't fend off the combined hacking power of a Proxy Mk2, a Deva and an Asura. And sometimes all that plus a Danava. Once the KoS is down, is pretty easy for OSS to hack my army to pieces. I'll be posting their lists soon. Regarding the doom link, I was aware that I could relink Joan, but I never thought about it for this particular list. I like the changes. Most of the times I try to use Joan 2.0 exclusively. That SWC 1 BS15 Spitfire is too tempting, but I can see how Joan 1.0 is maybe better suited for this list. I forgot to mention that we play the 20x20 mission system instead of ITS, so the lack of specialists isn't really something to worry about. The KHD and the HK doc are more than enough.
If you're having trouble with your opponents info war. Why not just totally shake it up and try and hit them with either a totally unhackable list – or a very slightly hackable list.
I thought about that, but that'll mean an OS heavy list. It's not a bad concept, but I find OS very squishy. Most of the times they're one shot, one kill from my opponents perspective. I play MO mostly for the HI options (and a little bit for Deus Vult). Not fielding any HI, feels weird. Besides that, my OCD prevents me from heavy proxing, and I only have 4 OS models (combi, HRL, hacker & Konstantinos). Now seriously, I'm willing to test good OS centric lists. But I haven't seen one convincing enough.
I feel you, I'm the same way! HI is really the bread and butter of the sectorial and it feels like you're missing a lot if you don't bring 3+ of them. A black friar leading a link of 4 order sergeants can be pretty effective against OSS and Tunguska. The multi rifle can tear through any NWI/dogged and the MSV really helps with their infiltrators. If I were you I would reserve the HI for long range duty – Father Knight missile in a link, Hospitaller HMG, maybe even a rambo Joan/Santiago KHD duo
True, but even the excellent KoS can succumb to a Lightning-Maestro onslaught. Skullbuster and Redrum are good hacker hunting tools, but they have some limitations. Particularly against Lightning and/or Maestro. PD: the podcast you made with Ben and Marty about NCA made me start collecting NCA. Good work on the Varuna episode.
You should be able to stealth through most of the field until you can unleash hit death on the hackers. I was about to post a similar take on your list that Achelon made just with a boarding shotgun instead of multi rifle Hospitalier. Infowar isnt a strong suit of MO, the KHD just helps cover the weakness and ward off enemies. Dont rely on it to do the work. It doesn't have the redundancy to be a reliable hacking assault piece and if often vital to link integrity. Generally against OSS, a 5man hmg to the face breaks most defensive pieces. The problems come in their TO pieces which we really dont have good answers to. Your khd in a 4+ man link has 6th sense which will put him on solid ground against hacking attacks. You may have to sacrifice units to draw them out, such as TOFOOSs which is pricey, but leads the way. When silt comes to strong hackers such as the Asura, shoot her. Shoot her dead, but mind the gap. Due to weird rulings, stealth breaks on things out of LoS when any of the link is otherwise exposed. So you may trade your KHD or other pieces accidentally for it. Tunguska is just nightmarish. The potential for isolation from hecklers and the ridiculousness that is Mary Problems is going to cause major problems for any LI list that is HI heavy. Again you'll be relying on stealth to get around hecklers and Dart becomes invaluable with eliminating all of these targets with MSV and her camo and stealth and climb+.
Stealth is great, but is very order intensive. In an army such as MO, it must be used with caution. As eciu said in another thread, MO leaves you zero error margin. And using stealth, thus wasting half an order each time you use it, narrows that margin even more.
I think you might be misusing stealth. It's an automatic skill – it's applied to all of your short movement skills in addition to cautious move.
I think you might need to reread the rules a little bit and sharpen up. MO relies on some rather intense rules stacking and it's easy to miss, overlook or misread certain aspects.
Maybe I am, but let me see if I get Stealth right. Basically it allows me to do a Cautious Movement inside an enemy ZoC but outside LoF. But for Stealth to work, the first short skill must be a move action, and the second can't be anything else than another move action. It's not the clearest written rule, so I may have misinterpreted it. Tomorrow, the guys from my meta promised they'll share their lists with me so I can post them here. Anyway, creating this thread has been really productive. Playing in such a small and repetitive meta can mess your perspective of the game, and I found valuable content in each reply I got. I should post more often.
No, you are wrong. 1. Stealth allows you to make a short movement skill inside the ZoC but outside the LoF without generatirn an ARO. 2. You can make a Cautious Movement even if you are or will be in the ZoC of an enemy troop. 3. If you declare an other skill than a short movement skill as second skill, you will lose all this benefits, even for the first short movement skill.
Yeah, that's exactly what I meant, except for the ARO part that I didn't include because I thought it was already understood we were discussing an ARO situation such as moving inside the ZoC of an enemy hacker. But thanks, your post has completely cleared any doubt I had.
Well if your opponent is abusing your army weakness to hacking and designing list specifically against you why don't do the same ? If hacking is a trouble for you go for a double killer hacker and a regular hacker to provide fairy dust. You could go crusade FT like this : Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 8 2 JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 51) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (Fireteam: Haris, MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 36) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 35) SPEC. SERGEANT Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21) SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 33) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) 5.5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army First send a solo KHD with fairy dust to deal with some hacker. Then if it's not enough send the second (haris doctor is not really necessary here. You could replace him with a regular doctor) If the problem are the TO and ODD maybe use one of your sergent as a proxy for Konstantinos and / or a blackfriar (even try the one with MSR) or the HMG in a full link for BS 17 if it's a TO sniper. Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 8 2 KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) MULTI Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 39) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) BROTHER KONSTANTINOS Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Assault Pistol, CCW. (0 | 29) BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 51) WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) 3 SWC | 297 Points Open in Infinity Army Koni is in the link of course acting as an OS. He can also be a solo and leave a spot in the team for Joan. (I would keep joan out of the link but she can follow with her own order. But she can join if there is a casualty => actually no execept if Koni is the casualty) Either she joins the link at the start and koni act as a solo or she stays out of the link and she can only join if Koni dies first. TO FO and Black friar will act as a solo hunter here, landing mines everywhere needed. If needed, replace a KHD santiago with another HMG or doctor whatever you need in that team. Also it's nice to have 3 fireteams, but having a few solo for more tactical flexibility is nice too. Your santiago doesn't have to be sitting next to joan if there is a rnice repeater you can use somewhere else. He can even replace a dead in a 5 men link. And last but most important of course is to get used and confortable with your list and adapt to the mission.
I like it, my first idea, when I saw "new" MO was, in fact, to build a list with an order sergents fireteam core and a Hospitaller haris, linked Father Knight with ML is amazing, I like Santiago KHD, maybe you could find a place for it.
As far as i know she can't join after casualties. The way the Crusader Fireteam rules are worded implies on the battelfield she only can join a fireteam if it contains exactly 4 Hospitallers. Therefore she can join if Konstantinos is the casulty. If one of the Knights dies she can't reform a fireteam with Konstantinos and the rest of the knights or only the remaining knights.
