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Mines and base contact

Discussion in 'Rules' started by WiT?, Dec 31, 2021.

  1. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Rules question that has come up. Easiest to sum up two seperate situations with an image.

    [​IMG]

    My understanding for the lefthand scenario is;

    - everything happens at once
    - cannot move through a template without being hit
    - cannot template a CC with an ally in it
    - ergo, if I enter B2B during a move, and a mine would detonate onto the model I am approaching, this all happens 'at once' and so it cannot be done. The mine does not detonate

    The alternative answer is that the mine detonates before you reach base contact. That doesn't fit with my 'all at once' logic. But I also hear that some things changed in N4?

    My understanding for the right hand scenario is that you could detonate before reaching close combat. But then, if you could do that here, why not in scenario #1? So I am confused.

    Have played the way I described for a decade. Been told its not the case but have not been told explicitly why. I know some things have changed in N4 so interested to know both the answers and why they work the way they do!
     
  2. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    Because the mine can detonate at any point if your path of movement, and thus can cover you before you make base contact?
     
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  3. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    That's my understanding as well. Because of All At Once, the moving unit exists along its whole movement path for the whole of the order. So it can be attacked at any point along its movement path - but it's still attacked at a specific point, not along the whole path it exists on.

    So in the first scenario, the enemy trooper only exists in one spot. Your trooper exists along its whole movement path, including a point where it's in sil contact with the enemy. Consequently, if the mine detonated it would hit the enemy while in sil contact, which isn't allowed, so the mine doesn't detonate.

    In the second scenario, the enemy exists along its whole movement path, so the mine can detonate and hit it on a point in its path where it's not in sil contact.

    As far as I can recall it was the same in N3, but my memory of those bygone days is getting fuzzy.
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    This'll be a bit of a repeat of the argumentation from Discord, but hopefully it'll be a slightly fresh take on it.

    The one you evaluate whether they are hit or not is each unit, and in the case of whether a friendly unit is hit you need to look at whether the friendly unit is in a situation where it would fulfil the criteria that it is hit and keeping in mind that the all at once rule is perhaps the most relevant rule of all for this situation.

    Basically, the question isn't whether the enemy has been hit by a template, but whether the enemy is hit by the template while the enemy is in base contact with your own trooper (which is what causes the template to hit everyone involved in that close combat).
    Case 1: Yes, the enemy trooper is touched by the template when the friendly trooper is touching it.
    Case 2: No, the enemy trooper is touched by the template, but not while in a position where the friendly trooper is touching it.
    -> being touched by a template is not a State anymore than being affected by a visibility zone is, it is all about positions.

    I do note that the rules say the template remains in place all the way until resolution, and that there are no rules that I can find that allow you to pick a point in the opponent's movement when you hit the enemy.
    What allowed you to do just that in N3 was an example that has been removed from N4 that created a rule. Specifically, a Fiday shooting their shotgun in blast mode (impact template back then) and then entering close combat in the same order was allowed by the example. People then interpreted that so that it applied to other units, other weapons, and other template types, than what was specified in the example.
     
  5. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    My understanding is that you check when the template is placed for the purpose of things being affected while engaged.

    - - - - -

    https://infinitythewiki.com/Engaged_State
    "Template Weapons placed on a group of Troopers in Engaged state will always affect all participating Troopers, even if the placement of the Template would only affect one of them."

    https://infinitythewiki.com/Template_Weapons_and_Equipment
    "Template Weapons placed on a group of Troopers engaged in Close Combat will always affect every Trooper involved, even if, due to the Template’s placement, it contacts only some of them. Players must take this into account, since Attacks cannot be performed against Allied Troopers."

    - - - - -

    Based on "placed" being the timing
    Example 1
    : If a friendly Moves into BtB, then the opponent ARO, you then place the Mine's template and at the moment you place it, they are already engaged. Template is cancelled. (I think that example is very clear, no matter the reading)

    Example 2: If a the opponent's ARO before your trooper is in BtB, as you place the template, they won't be engaged, so your trooper will then be able to move into BtB with them while they'll still be affected. (That part I'm not 100% if it sticks to RAI, and I could read it both way RAW)

    Example 3: Enemy moves, not in BtB, gets hit by mines, then moves into BtB with a friendly. With my reading, the mine won't be cancelled as when it was placed, the enemy wasn't engaged.

    Example 4: Enemy moves into BtB, gets hit by mine, mine is placed and the enemy is engaged, template is cancelled. (This would be the case regardless of where the mine hit the target, as when the target is hit, it is already considered in Engaged State)

    - - - - -

    Based on resolution being the timing
    If the "placement" isn't the timing to check, but rather you'd have to check at resolution, then the mines would always be cancelled if the enemy reaches BtB at any point in the order as they are in Engaged State at the Resolution.

    - - - - -

    I could easily see it read either way.
     
  6. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    The reason the Fiday could do that is because your own DTW doesn't affect you. The Fiday can *still* do that in N4.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    In N3 the shotties didn't DTW, they ITW:ed :upside_down_face:
     
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  8. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    If you're unable to find the rule which states when you choose the position of the target when you make a BS Attack, that's not surprising because it's currently essentially an aside in one of the BS Attack FAQs:

    Q: Do you need to specify all details of a Skill when declaring it? For example where the target is for a BS Attack, or where the template is being placed for White Noise?

    A: Yes, with the exception of the target’s position, which is chosen in the Resolution step, before measuring Ranges. If the order of declaration is important, the active player chooses who declares first.​

    If you're trying to claim that that doesn't apply to the situation of using a template weapon...
     
  9. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    You're right, in example two the template doesn't just hit the enemy at one point as I suggested - it hits it all along the part of its movement path that passes through the template.

    Doesn't change the result (which I think we all agree on), but yeah, to be precise, what you do is place the template in a specific position, as opposed to shooting the target at a specific point.
     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that doesn't quite work with templates. Among others, this one:
    Template Weapons Into Close Combat
    Template Weapons placed on a group of Troopers engaged in Close Combat will always affect every Trooper involved, even if, due to the Template’s placement, it contacts only some of them. Players must take this into account, since Attacks cannot be performed against Allied Troopers.​

    You need to make sure the rules passage you attempt to mic drop on is actually solid. In the case of close combat, it doesn't actually rely on the trooper's position during the order, but simply on the position of the template itself.
     
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