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Minelayer skill Question

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Azuset, May 9, 2019.

  1. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    Can I deploy all available mines during deployment with this skill?
     
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  2. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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  3. chromedog

    chromedog Less than significant minion

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    No (as noted above). When using the skill, you deploy just the one (and only THAT one gets the ZoC deployment range during deployment. ALL remaining mines must be deployed in base contact with you )
    It's not restricted to just "mines" though. Some characters have the skill but no mines, but they have other deployable things instead (like repeaters) - they can use the skill to place one of those instead.
     
    #3 chromedog, May 9, 2019
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    And, for completeness sake, only one deployable, not one of each deployable.
     
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  5. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    Thanks.

    The entry for the skill does not realy convey "just one" to me.
     
  6. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Note that all three of the examples, and the FAQ, for the skill all repeat “the Mine”, singular.
     
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  7. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    In addition, the rules text repeatedly uses the singular 'a' or 'the':

    The user of this Special Skill can secure his point of deployment by placing a Mine, or the Deployable Weapon or piece of Equipment he carries, nearby to prevent enemy troopers from approaching.
    • Any enemy Camouflage and Hiding Marker cannot be inside the Trigger Area of the Deployable Weapon or piece of Equipment when it is deployed.
    • The deployment of the Deployable Weapon or piece of Equipment must follow the Deployment general conditions.
    • In the Deployment Phase, this Special Skill allows to its user to place the Deployable Weapon or piece of Equipment inside his Zone of Control.
    • If the Deployable Weapon or piece of Equipment has the Disposable Trait, then it will be subtracted from the total of available uses.
    • If the user of this Special Skill deploys using any level of the Infiltration Special Skill, and fails the PH Roll, then in addition to the effects shown in the Infiltration Special Skill rule text, the Minelayer will lose the Deployable Weapon or piece of Equipment, subtracting it from the total of available uses if it has the Disposable Trait.
     
  8. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    You are completely right @Azuset . The description mentions a mine but it's a description and doesn't speak to the number allowed, so hardly a fast rule to follow. The requirements and effects mostly talk about the mine which again, not a hard and fast rule. Examples are not rules and shouldn't be a place new rules are found either. Guns have a burst value for a reason. As players we expect to see it clearly listed how many times we can shoot or deploy mines during an action.

    I don't think players should be expected to read the rules or examples and come to a conclusion themselves about how many mines the Minelayer skill allows at deployment. It's basic information that the rules should provide, just like burst for guns. Especially in a rule set that is not very clear in many areas.

    The skill should clearly say only one mine can be deployed. It doesn't, so your question is completely valid.
     
    #8 Ginrei, May 9, 2019
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
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  9. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    • If the Deployable Weapon or piece of Equipment has the Disposable Trait, then it will be subtracted from the total of available uses.
    I'm not sure why one would think he can use the skill several time during the deployment in order to dispose of his whole stack of mine/etc. What if you had a deployable weapon/equipment that did not had Disposable ? You would use the skill 50 times to deploy 50 copies ?
     
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  10. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    It's not necessarily that one thinks they can deploy more than one mine. It's that the rules don't tell us and some people, myself included, don't make assumptions unless we have to. And we certainly don't expect to have to make assumptions regarding a set of rules. It seems perfectly logical that we might have missed something rather than the game devs not telling us something so obviously important. So asking, in case we've missed something, makes perfect sense.

    Again, Infinity the game in particular, is not the place to make assumptions. Unfortunately, we're being asked to do so quite often.

    Also, I'm not sure what your quoted rule proves.
     
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  11. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    You missed the fact that the rule effect already have something to say in the cases of deployable weapon/equipment that has Disposable trait. It says you subtract it from the total number of available uses. You subtract the one you used. It doesn't say to deploy all 3 uses of your deployable.

    edit: And that bullet is in addition to the rest of the rule always referring to a singular piece of equipment not a stack of them or to several pieces of equipment.
     
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  12. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    You're making assumptions and drawing conclusions not written in the rules.
     
  13. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    and you are making the assumption that "place the piece of equipment" (singular) means placing all 3 deployable repeaters.
     
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  14. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I'm the one not making any assumptions. I've pointed out that the rule doesn't say to place only one mine. Just like it doesn't say we can place all the mines we have. That's all. You're telling me that the rule only allows us to place one and your reasoning is based on assumptions.
     
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  15. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Look at it this way... The rule says to place the mine.. etc etc. Lets say I agree that means we can only place one mine.

    What's stopping me from using the skill a second time? Or a third? Is there a rule to the number of times I can use these skills during deployment? Maybe there is, the rules are tough to follow.
     
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  16. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    I'm pointing out that the rule text grammar and examples shows that there is only one mine placed, even though every one know they have Disposable (3). The rule say you place the deployable weapon and subtract it from the total uses available. Players don't need to assume anything there, just follow what the rule says.
     
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  17. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    @Robock see my second post there please, you might have missed it.
     
  18. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    On that I agree, the skill, per use, only deploys 1 mine. The assumption is that you only use that special skill once. A simple one to make. How many time do you use the other special deployment skill ?

    edit: for example, when you use Booty, you make 1 roll. What says you cannot use Booty 10 times on the same model, until you get the roll result you want ? There is no rule that minelayer and booty can only be used once for each trooper that has those skill, but I don't think it really needs a FAQ to confirm it.
     
  19. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    BOOTY LEVEL 1 DEPLOYMENT SKILL
    Optional.
    REQUIREMENTS
    EFFECTS

    • Immediately after placing each of your troopers with Booty Level 1 on the table for deployment, you may roll on the Booty L1 Chart once to determine that trooper's extra loot.
    My emphasis in bold above. But to be fair, there's probably other skills that don't say that. But other poor rules don't excuse a poor rule. Two wrongs don't make a right.

    And an assumption, no matter how simple any of us may think it is, is still an assumption not everyone may agree with. I'm of the mind they should be eliminated from having to be made at all, full stop.
     
  20. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    Seriously?
    As stated above, the rule speaks addressing the deployable as SINGULAR, never plural.

    One minelayer, one deployable.

    Or would you like me to plant 6 mines in YOUR deployment zone? :P
     
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