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Measuring climbing

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Hachiman Taro, May 8, 2020.

  1. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    What do you actually measure when you climb in Code 1?

    'The user may climb vertically up to the first value of his MOV Attribute in inches, measuring from the base’s outer edge and underside.'
    - Code 1, CLIMB, EFFECTS P39, point 1

    'Climb only allows movement on vertical surfaces;'
    Code 1, CLIMB, EFFECTS P39, point 4

    'A Trooper that is in contact with an obstacle declares the Climb Skill. The obstacle is measured and is 4 inches tall, the same as the Trooper’s first MOV Attribute value, therefore they climb up and are placed on the upper surface.'
    - Code 1 CLIMB, EXAMPLE OF CLIMB 1, P40

    These quotes from the rules appear to contradict each other. I have already seen different players read them different ways (for example Mayacast's most recent episode read them differently than I've seen them interpreted on the forum).

    Also, the diagrams are not unambiguous in clearing this up, since it's not entirely clear if the figure representing the length of movement is referring to the length of the vertical climb only, or the total length of the green line with the arrows, including the part after it bends. This is not helped by the fact they are not to scale, or apparently not consistent in scale either.

    So which of these is true (without climbing+)?

    1) Do you measure only the vertical distance of a CLIMB in Code 1 (so a MOV 4/4 Silhouette 2 Trooper can at maximum climb a 4 inch high obstacle in 1 order)?

    OR

    2) Do you measure the horizontal width of the models base at the start of a CLIMB, as well as the vertical climb height in Code 1 (so a MOV 4/4 Silhouette 2 trooper can at maximum climb a 3 inch high obstacle in 1 order)?

    OR

    3) Do you measure the horizontal width of the models base at the start AND end of a CLIMB, as well as the vertical climb height in Code 1 (so a Mov 4/4 Silhouette 2 trooper can at maximum climb a 2 inch high obstacle in 1 order)?

    ??

    @HellLois since you seem to be answering questions right now would you mind answering this one?
     
    #1 Hachiman Taro, May 8, 2020
    Last edited: May 8, 2020
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  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The wall in example 1 is 3" tall, which means you need 4" to clear the obstacle. This example seem to be the only one that's contradictory and due to poorly describing the situation more than anything else.
     
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  3. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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  4. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    This stops them contradicting each other:
    ‘Once the Trooper reaches a level surface, his movement ends for that Order, placing the Trooper on the horizontal surface (see diagram).’

    So Trooper climbs 4” up the 4” wall, and is placed on the roof.
     
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  5. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    So, like on the image, you Climb the height of the wall (4" building") with a 4-4 trooper and then set his base flat on the roof, effectively gaining the base size in movement distance, correct?

    It's not the case of "you have to fit the base size within the 4" of movement, allowing you to climb 3" buildings and set the base within the 4th inch"?
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Given that "placement" is not covered by the General Movement rules and allows a longer movement than permitted by the first bullet point of General Movement rules, on the technical how does that work with setting facing, AROs, mine triggers, and so on?
     
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  7. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    OK. Thank you for the clarification.

    I'd say that's another example of text that seems to contradict some of the text that I quoted, rather than text that resolves the contradiction I saw though. I was hoping we would leave the case of an example proving a literal reading of the rules text incorrect behind in N3.

    Could you explain what the bolded part of this rule is supposed to indicate then?

    'The user may climb vertically up to the first value of his MOV Attribute in inches, measuring from the base’s outer edge and underside.'
    - Code 1, CLIMB, EFFECTS P39, point 1

    To me that reads like you are supposed to measure from the edge of the base furthest from the wall (presumably horizontally to the wall, then up the wall, meaning a 25 mm base trooper would climb vertically 1 inch less than their first MOV).

    The green line with arrow would also seem to imply that too, since I feel like it implies the figure given is the total length of the line (including the horizontal parts), though it's not clear.

    It would be good to have it be completely unambiguous if possible.
     
    #7 Hachiman Taro, May 8, 2020
    Last edited: May 8, 2020
  8. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Good lord. I literally interpreted those diagrams as saying that you need to measure the horizontal distance. It was one of the first "wow, this is a change from N3" things I noticed.

    IE I took the green line to mean the distance that you measure. That is 4" is the length of the green line, not the height of the building.

    Q: does this also apply to C+ executed as a Move? Or do you measure differently between the two.
     
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  9. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    That’s the standard text for measuring movement:

    IMPORTANT

    When performing a Movement, measurement must always be made from the same point of the base's outer edge.

    All it refers to is the outer circumference of the base.
     
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  10. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I think it should say something like ...

    'The base width of 'free' horizontal movement when beginning or ending a climb at a horizontal surface does not reduce the vertical length of a climb (so a 4" MOV trooper climbs 4" vertically on a 4" high wall, and is placed at the top)'

    ... in the effects to be perfectly clear it happens the way IJW says.
     
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  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Can CB change the image so that it's clear the building is 4" high not that the green line is 4" long?

    The way the image is set up its pretty much best practice for describing a 4" long line.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    These rules now got a bit more exceptions. It seems to me that;

    Climb: surface is not treated as horizontal, can not claim cover, free placement in excess of MOV value at top
    Climb+: surface is treated as horizontal, can not claim cover, no free placement at top*
    Ladders: surface is treated as horizontal, can claim cover**, no free placement at top

    * Because the surface is a horizontal surface and movement can continue when you reach the top
    ** Because restrictions to cover is found under climbing rules and ladders and stairs say restrictions for climbing are ignored
     
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  13. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Paging @HellLois
     
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  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    TBF that’s only one change from N3...

    But yes, one or the things I liked about “no free movement at the top” was that it meant Climb and C+ measured the same way.
     
  15. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

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    Hey folks, just for refference:
    This is how it's used to look in the N3 example (one order, 6" movement in total)
    [​IMG]
     
  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That more accurately describes what is apparently legal in C1.
     
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  17. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    FWIW I read it that the placement onto the horizontal surface was free, and I'm glad to see that that's how it works.
     
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  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Thanks.

    For comparison look at these pictures:

    [​IMG]

    Both appear to show the Green line measuring 4" of Movement.
     
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  19. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    @inane.imp, I will grant you that there is some inconsistent visual language being used in those two images. The one on the left is quite hard to read, since it's not even clear if the model is starting at the furthest left ghost position or at the silhouette template.
     
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  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I meant to quote @ijw paging @HellLois, (which is who I was intending to respond to), my bad. :)
     
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