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Mass camo good?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Tanan, Jul 19, 2019.

  1. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    Hi,

    People in this forum sometimes use the term “mass camo”. I assume that it refers to an army list that is:
    - Powerful
    - Has a lot of troopers with Camouflage ability

    Being an Ariadna player that uses a lot of models that have that ability, I struggle to see how that ability is considered to be powerful when deployed in great numbers. If anything camo troopers expensive and good only during active turns and only against non-MSV2/link troops.

    But perhaps I’m missing something.

    Perhaps mass camo refers to a specific non-Ariadna faction army? Or mass camo actually means that the list has like 4 camo markers?
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Ariadna is fairly unique in that they can stick down more than 1 camo marker per 30 points, and is almost exclusively referring to Ariadna or Shasvasti
    I think what you might be missing is that camo markers take essentially a full order just to be able to attack, particularly if you're also hiding them tactically. It's extremely difficult to reduce your order pool, leaving it mostly intact for your active turn, and it's also very difficult to prevent your movement through AROs due to the need to Discover first.
    Above all else, though, I think people find it less fun to play against, not particularly OP. It can be a bit like a TR HMG Remote where it is difficult to handle when you're new to the game, but just like that Remote it is never fun to face off against it even when you can handle it.
     
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  3. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Mass camo is good for many reason :
    1) hard to hit : the more camo you have, the hardest it is for your opponent to identify and kill your heavy hitter and/or your order
    2) 1 turn protection : camo itself grant you a "one turn free pass" allowing you to move-move without any fear of retribution
    3) Every marker is a threat : mass camo specialised army have one big advantage ; every camo can be a threat to your troop. Because of that, your opponent is forced to waste order detecting it to know if the marker is no threat (ambush camo) or a real threat (mine, emauler, long range ARO)
    4) Full camo : the summum of mass camo is full camo. Giving your opponent a blank courtesy list means he has no idea of what threat you have, what kind of list you play (what van zant is waiting in his back...). It's a huge tactical and psychological advantage

    Ariadna is very good at this because it's the only army with so many camo trooper and, even more, so many non camo trooper (you can take 6 ambush camo and 6 minelayer in 1 vanilla list)

    Other faction can be good at this (I love my mass camo nomad list), but Ariadna (and shavastii) is the best at this
     
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  4. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the reply. I agree with everything you said. Camo markers are very good at moving around the table and prevent forcing enemy to waste orders (read: movement) in Discovering them.

    What people don’t perhaps realise is that you can pretty much ignore enemy Camo Markers during your own turn, because:
    - Camo markers are usually hidden behind LoF blocking terrain. Visible Camo marker gets quickly Discovered by link teams and put down.
    - Generally speaking, Camo marker troopers aren’t great fighters. For example, there are no 2 wound/NWI camouflage troopers in TAK. If they ARO, there is an excellent chance that they lose f2f roll against anyone.
    - Any model with flamethrower and decent burst weapon can easily kill camouflaged models. The camo marker can only pray that the intuitive attack and discover roll both fail during critical turn.

    Could you post a good ”mass camo” Ariadna list? Perhaps I’m using the erona models.
     
  5. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Some comments about these,
    • Links gain +3 WIP but they doesn't gain extra B, just in case.
    • I think CAMO are good fighters, they just aren't tought fighters; thanks to camo and cover they will impose a -6 to their enemies, he can easily reach postions other models can't to attack from behind/outside cover and exploiting weapons ranges.
    • A camo model can still declare AROs if he see the odds of being discovered are high, he is not forced to pray versus those; and other dedicated models of the army should be providing supresive/total reaction fire to cover him. Their role isn't ARO, is active turn.
     
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  6. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    Don’t get me wrong, I think that camouflage is a very good ability. It’s best when attached to a killer active turn profile and weaponry.

    Someone with NWI, E/M grenades, MSV and that sweet climbing plus. Someone like DART.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think you need to try your hand on vanilla and max out on Chasseur. :-D

    Dart is fortunately not able to reach critical mass of camo in the sectorials she's in.
     
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  8. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    See, the point is that leaving camo markers alone leaves a serious threat close to your own troops. They need very few orders to reach a good firing position, and can use camo to bypass more dangerous models and attack the underbelly.

    Dart is extremely powerful, yes. But you don't need her full toolbox to raise all kinds of hell. I'm playing both TAK and Shasvastii, and I can't count how many times a "weak" trooper like Shrouded, Strelok, or Scout made the whole difference. Looking on TAK alone, every Camo unit in the sectorial is deadly. MacMannus is a murder machine. Scouts are great as primary assault pieces. Streloks are great chaff, distractions, and "Plan B" troops. And so on.
     
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  9. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    Ah, I knew that there was a specific troop type out there that made mass camo good.

    Sixth sense lvl1 is a godlike for camo marker. So mass camo is more like mass Chasseur?
     
  10. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    @Stiopa could you please post a TAK camo spam list that you think is reasonably good. I’m not going to tear it down or anything. Just curious what you think counts as a “mass camo”.
     
  11. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    This is the kind of list I would play as mass camo :
    Ariadna
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8
    SPETSNAZ (CH: Ambush Camouflage) HMG / Pistol, CCW, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    TANKHUNTER Portable Autocannon, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34)
    SCOUT Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    CHASSEUR (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
    STRELOK (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
    FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    CHASSEUR (Minelayer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)
    MÉTRO Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 8)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]2
    SPETSNAZ (CH: Ambush Camouflage) HMG / Pistol, CCW, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    VASSILY Lieutenant (Forward Observer) T2 Sniper, D-Charges / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1 | 35)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    MÉTRO Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 8)
    HARDCASE FRONTIERSMAN Tactical Bow, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    HARDCASE FRONTIERSMAN Tactical Bow, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    18 camo marker is good enough to be "mass".

    The tankhunter is a good incentive for my opponent not to ignore my camo in my deployement zone : one of them could be a weapon of death waiting to bring down his TAG/HI

    Mine/hardcase/chasseur is a good incentive for my opponent not to ignore my midfield camo because many of them have template (direct or not) and will be very happy to use them to bring down link team or scrap 1 wound of a rambo

    When going offensive, spetnaz HMG is good for ARO piece, vassily to shot unanswered (because -12) and scout to clean up midfield or rambo a badly deployed FT.

    The limited insertion version, because blank courtesy list are fun (love to say : yes this is my courtesy list and yes this is 15 camo marker) :
    Ariadna
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    SPETSNAZ (CH: Ambush Camouflage) HMG / Pistol, CCW, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    SPETSNAZ (CH: Ambush Camouflage) HMG / Pistol, CCW, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    VASSILY (Chain of Command) T2 Sniper, D-Charges / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1 | 39)
    TANKHUNTER Portable Autocannon, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34)
    SCOUT Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    PAVEL McMANNUS Ojotnik, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, T2 CCW, Knife. (0 | 31)
    STRELOK (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
    SCOUT (Forward Observer) Ojotnik, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    CHASSEUR (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
    CHASSEUR (Minelayer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)

    6 SWC | 295 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    PS : if you play vanilla Ariadna and don't have 2 chasseur on your list, then you are playing it wrong
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    No, it's not specifics, but there are a few camo models other than Dart who can be described as "godlike" (which really only means "very valuable compared to the points cost")

    Strelok Minelayer is another kind of "godlike" camo. 21/0.5 for 3 camo markers? That's up to 3 orders eaten by your opponent before they can even attack you, and you still have around 30% chance for each Discover attempt to fail and not be re-ordered - and that's against Sensor/MSV troopers.

    Once you have around 12-15 camo markers, preferably with some of them hiding snipers or other SWC weapons, you're starting to mass-camo. The rest of your list can be cheap order support, Mimetic brawlers, etc as appropriate for the mission. That Strelok has good odds at taking down enemies, regardless of how you rank the profile, when you take the camo into account and the fact that you're choosing positions. Your opponent has to keep in mind that any one of those camo markers is fully capable of attacking their units at favourable odds - yes, even a BS 11, 1 W, 1 ARM trooper is going to be dangerous.
    A Foxtrot with BSG has 41% chance of wounding a Mowang and 37% next order! That's at only 10% and 15% risk respectively.
    While that represents only about ~12% chance of killing a full health Mowang within 3 orders at 65% risk of losing the Foxtrot, you're also risking so much less tactical clout and a Mowang is far from an ideal target since it's got Mimetism and a heavy pistol

    The point is: Camo wastes orders. Minelayer and Ambush Camo wastes a lot of orders.
     
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  13. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    Also the fact that you can move-move past anything without msv3 and not care if you get discovered so long as you end out of LoF and basically not need to engage the enemy.

    Any camo troop with mines is a threat. I don't care that they have BS11 for the most part.
     
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  14. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    It's the same against MSV3. You will be automaticaly discovered at the end of the order, but if you are out of LoF at the end of the order, you don't care

    Or option B if you are in short range and with good LoF (no cover) : the charontid/aquila, confident in its MSV 3 declare discover, then you promply shoot it in the face, without opposition (or better : burn him). Even a rifle can do damage, when unopposed.
     
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  15. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    Out of curiosity how do you play ambush camo and minelayers?

    Do you have to deploy ambush camo and mine at the same time and then measure ZoCs? Because if you do it’s pretty easy to deduce which model is potentially dangerous ARO piece (Spetsnaz) and which is there to just eat orders (Strelok minelayer).

    I also fail to see how tank hunter AROs are super dangerous to TAGs. Even in a worst case scenario where there are no Discovery and TAG gets no cover, tank hunter in would be rolling 1 die ARO against burst4 HMG or equivalent.

    But mass Chasseur, that I understand. It’s sad that they aren’t available in TAK.
     
  16. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    TH can be frightening only in case of a lucky shot or facing Xeodrons/Geckos. They are deadly in active or with a ML against FT but that's it. Thing is, if your opponent doesn't know the odds, he will be more prone to paranoia.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You really don't need to measure ZoC if they're sufficiently close. A for deployment skills, they need to be used when you deploy the unit.

    @Ayadan TH also has the luck factor. A lucky success with a sniper threatens to hurt a heavy infantry, a lucky success with a Tank Hunter greatly threatens to pulverize a heavy infantry. I've been arrogant about a TH's chance of success with my heavy infantry before only to roll poorly and face far too many DAM 15 AP ARM rolls.
     
  18. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Nothing force you to mesure ZoC. If you are confindent you are 20 cm away or less, you don't have to check (usualy I don't)

    Also : learn to deploy camo not prone but up and hidden behind cover. This way, your ambush camo/mine won't be the only one "not prone"

    Except you have a lot of camo marker. If a TAG or an ILO declare move/move and end up the second move in LoF of a camo marker, you can gain an unopposed ARO. And with a lot of camo marker (ambush or other) with LoF, this can easily happen.

    It force your opponent to be extra carefull when moving fast moving troops to rambo (and so loose order)
     
  19. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    @Mahtamori that’s debatable. Infinity rules aren’t clear in this case. We play so that opponent knows (by observing ZoC measurements) which markers belong to a specific slot.
     
  20. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Nope, that's not debatable.

    Rules allows you to mesure ZoC at deployement (when deploying mine, ambush, FT...) and force you to deploy mine/g:Sync/deployable/ambush camo in ZoC. One is a "can" the other is a "must"

    If you don't mesure and end up deployed in ZoC, then you follow the rules

    If you don't mesure and end up out of ZoC, then you cheated (by choice or mistake). The result will depends on your opponent/referee

    As long as you take some margin of error while deploying, it's easy to deploy mine/ambush without measuring
     
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