Making "suboptimal" profiles work

Sin Eater is kinda pointless when the TR bot exists.

Grenzer FO has some nice applications when embedded into a fireteam as a specialist, room clearer, and NCO. But is outclassed by other models for offensive fireteams, being 1w at 30 points doesn't cut it anymore.

Moira HMG, Meh, take a vostok, or kusanagi.

Spektr, useful utility pick, especially if you're in a HI/TAG heavy meta.

Not quite sure about how I feel about the hellcat hacker this edition.

Moderator hacker is a great 1 of in a core team and behind a -6 firewall.

Brigada HMG, doesn't really do anything, and not really worth the points you're paying, though at 400 can be a half decent back up gunner.

Not the TM profile I'd take, much prefer the HRL followed by the RF (mostly because a stock standard HMG don't really cut it anymore), but the TM is a great anchor for a BJC list and is a great jack of all trades piece between competent shooter, average CC and helping with the defensive game. Though at 400 the HMG could be a decent back up gunner.

 

I've always wanted to try the Sin Eater Sniper and coordinate him in active. But I've never gotten around to it.

Sin eater in general is a little better now supportware isn't so easy to come by for the TR bot. Probably not enough but still, maybe worth a try in a fun game.

 

I've had quite nice times with MK12 or MSR Sin-eaters.

I usually put 1-2 Reaktion Zonds, 2 Transductors, 3-4 Jaguars to form a reactive gunline, and a Sin-eater properly holding the line among them, does quite good.

I don't think he's good when he's alone, but when combined with other reactive-battle-brothers and sisters, he does much more than he costs, IMO.

 

Brigada HMG is fine. Armor 8 in cover, decent BS, Wildcard, etc. all add up to a reasonable gunner. It's no Vostok but the Vostok is crazy efficient.

 

hellcat is an allstar for Countermeasures, he can come out in the enemy pre-deployment zone stripe and do most of the deck by himself

spektr allows you to do a sudden ARO hack on a tag, you can screw Avatars whole turn if he gets into your ZoC on second move

 

I often take what is perceived as suboptimal and make it work, it is usually for a specific reason as it does something interesting, like Taskmasters they were incredibly underrated (especially the HRL) last edition and still are now despite the indirect nerf they received via the perimeter weapon change. I experiment less now with what is perceived to be suboptimal because I don't have the space in a list thanks to the 15 cap, every model needs to pull it's own weight or doing something interesting otherwise it's not worth the slot, in addition to some of the general N4 changes makes putting certain models on the table a constant disappoint every time they go down and immediately get picked without doing anything.

Additionally, certain pieces rely on certain contexts to really shine, as well as the removal of competing pieces in it's space. For example the Moderator hacker is actually pretty good, it's cheap, has BTS, good enough wip and excellent when projecting threat through a repeater, however in vanilla for just a few more points you can pick up one of the games top hackers as well as a faction defining piece that brings useful utility in Jazz, followed by the interventor, though at that point an argument could be made as the cost difference of moderator to interventor is pretty much a flashpulse bot.

Everything in your list I can think of decent applications for, not all in vanilla but that's fine, things should be better in some places but not others, with the exception of the Sin Eater, when it had FD 1 it was at least interesting as the spitfire and especially the MK12 could make for great road bumps which made choosing between them and a TR bot an actual decision,and you had half a dozen morlocks to screen for them. Now, well they are one of the pieces I would classify as straight up bad, especially in comparison to the TR bot. Neurocinetics should not have survived the edition change and they should have been upgraded to having TR (not having any active use REALLY hurts it), it is less durable than the bot, especially considering the amount of shock running around, the bot shoots better and costs less. On paper and as a concept it is great and if BJC didn't have access to TR bots you would take them but as it stands they are a perpetual disappointing meatbag when compared to the Reaktion zond.

I will say this though, 40 points opens the game a lot and as a result a lot of maligned profiles start looking a hell of a lot more attractive and interesting, it's just at 300 there isn't enough space.

 

true but with REMs going prone now and it being a lot harder to get people out of cover in addition to being a real dangerous backup shooter the bot outclasses it by a mile.

 

The bot is easier to hit and easier to put down though.

 

TR bot also has 2 unconcious states so is a bit harder to completely remove from the table, especially when it goes prone now.

Mk12 sin is decent in smaller games or when you can’t spare any SWC at all. ARM3, BS13 and mimetism is still nice to have.

 

Even then, the TR bot can do things in Active Turn. The Sin Eater is useless in active.

It’s just too many points to sink into a purely defensive unit. Especially since it dies to a single Shock damage, while the TR bot can take 2 damage and still get repaired back up.

Throw in the fact that Bakunin can link Clockmakers and it’s pretty easy to keep a TR bot up and running.

 

Then we're talking about other elements of the list you've taken, and are we now building the list to cater for the Reaktion Zond? If you're taking an engineer and a EVO you've now got a very specific list that's also probably going to take a Vostok...A face-to-face comparison of the two the sin eater is stronger in ARO. He also has a 20% better chance at the dodge, push the MK12 guy up who is 0 SWC and you have a 29 point pain in the ass. And if I'm right Bakunin are probably more in favour of doctors over Engineer heavy lists?

 

Bakunin has the Moderator Paramedic. The rest of its doctors/paramedics are either unlinkable or overcosted (Avicenna isn’t overcosted on the whole, but she’s too expensive to be babysitting the Sin Eater with a Servant Bot instead of linking up). You also need an Engineer to heal the Chimera.

Other than that, everything you said is correct. None of it matters.

TR bots see play. The Sin Eater doesn’t. Yes, he’s got things going for him, but none of them make up for the fact that he’s a huge portion of your list that is unusable during the Active turn.

And yes, you’re probably taking a Vostok. It’s a Mim (-6) gun that can be buffed with Marksmanship and has Wildcard. It’s one of the strongest shooters in Bakunin. Or all of Nomads for that matter. And you can link it with a clockmaker for easy repairs.

 

clockmaker is linkable in Bakunin and soon you can field Fiddler who is more than just a remote healer

 

Man. "the grass is always greener" as they say since I see nothing bad about them.
I wish I had a jump troop as cheap as the Hellcat.
The Sensor alone makes the Grenzer NCO worth it. +6 to discover with MSV1!
A Mim -6, BS12 HMG! With NCO! and the pts are about right.
The Spekter's only problem is that he has goes up against others in his own force. But a WIP14 midfield hacker with hidden deployment is never bad.
lol a 14pt, WIP13, BTS3 hacker is suboptimal? I wish my Zhanshi were that suboptimal. I just want the PARA -6 CCW so Fiday's might think twice about taking it out.
What's so bad about a super HI that can start on the board with a mine next him and hold an area? Ever gone up against a Al Fasid? Granted he he also comes with Regular and Smoke GL but he pays for it. Oh and stealth lol.

 

I guess compared to others they my seem suboptimal, I guess it depends.

I've gone up against a Sin Eater and had a much harder time against it that a TR bot. Would either miss due to BS13, Mim-3 and cover or he would make his ARM3 roll. That was the HMG though but still I can see the same for the Mk12. It's fantastic in missions where you need to move up into it's optimal range.

The Taskmaster is just an area holder. Sit him down in cover with a mine covering his back and wait for enemy to come to him. His hi CC, MA, and DA CCW make CC specialist really think about trying to take him on too. Perfect for covering things like Servers, AC units, etc.

I would certainly take the Grenzer if I knew I was going up against a high camo army or any mission with the Low viz zones.

 

I just noticed I haven't actually given my input on these guys, so I guess I'll do it here:

Sin-Eaters: Neurocinetics is awful. The only good model with Neurocinetics in the entire game is the Helot; every other model with it sees very close to 0 play. Just delete Neurocinetics from the game and replace it with Total Reaction. It'll fix the useless units and make the Helots more balanced via cost increase. Also, no Shock Immune means these guys have a tendency to die outright, while a TR bot would go unconscious and be able to get repaired. Swap Neurocinetics with Total Reaction, give them Shock Immune, and they might see some play.

Grenzer: Cool model, 29 points for 1 wound hurts. Tends to be replaced by cheaper things.

Moira HMG: Absolutely incredible shooter. BS 12 HMG with ODD that goes in a Core link. But 37 points and no shock immune is a HUGE issue. You are one crit away from having a 37 point unit get completely removed off the table, and against linked MSV pieces she's a 37 point Fusilier. Made worse by the fact that her only link options are other Observance units, which makes a Core link stupidly expensive.

Spektr Hacker: This guy's fine. I mean you probably reach for the KHD, FO, or Dep Rep profiles first, but this guy is a solid Hidden hacker.

Hellcat Hacker: Hellcats unfortunately directly compete with Tomcats, who are cheaper and pack Climbing+, but can't Combat Jump. Similar to the Grenzer, this is a pretty cool piece, but 9 times out of 10 you're going to replace it with the cheaper, more versatile Tomcat. Or pay 1 extra point to take Carlotta instead.

Moderator Hacker: Wait, people don't like this guy? I like this guy. I thought people really liked this guy. He's your only real chance at a Core-linked hacker in Bakunin (and therefore Sixth Sense) and 14 points for WIP 13 and BTS 3 ain't shabby. His buddies can even bring Pitchers, and a Riot Grrl can bring a Firewall (-6) if you really want.

MB HMG: You have two options for Core-linked HMGs in Corregidor. This is the good one. Boring, but good. Tends to be overshadowed by the absolute nonsense that is the AP Spitfire Evader, but if you want the longer rangeband of an HMG, this is the place to find it.

Taskmaster HMG: I like taskmasters, but giving up the Direct Template and downgrading to Shock Mines never feels worth it. Plus the Red Fury gets a Firewall. Not many HMG options in Bakunin though.

The Sin Eater is indeed a better ARO piece; the problem is that its ONLY an ARO piece, and against many active turn threats (MSV snipers shooting through smoke, Core-linked HMGs) the statistical difference between it and a TR bot is almost negligible.

Example: Let's take a Brawler Sniper. Brawler (Core Link, DA Ammo) vs. Sin Eater is 41.73%/30.14%/28.13%, with a 21.97% to kill the Sin Eater outright. Brawler (Core Link, DA Ammo) vs. TR Bot (Marksmanship) is 40.99%/26.92%/32.08%, and only an 11.31% chance to kill the TR bot outright. Slightly better shooting odds, but only half the chance to die. And a Brawler Sniper is very low on the list of active-turn threats shooting at you. Also; this is without using a Smoke-Trick to give you a (-6) to your rolls.

The MK12 version seems good, but you can just take a better unit and stick them in Suppressive Fire for an roughly equal ARO piece. Like, say, the Multi Rifle Riot Grrl.

A Sin Eater HMG costs 32 points and 1.5 SWC, is useless in half of the game turns,and provides 1 order. Reaktion Zond + Salyut Zond EVO is 40 points and 1.5 SWC, is at least decent the whole game, and provides 2 orders, while also being able to buff your Vostok (you DID bring a Vostok, right?), counter Combat Jumps, or throw up Fairy Dust. The Reaktion Zond is also very easy to repair via a linked Clockmaker (B3 Gizmokit) and has much better mobility due to 6-4 Mov and Climbing Plus. You also can't flank it thanks to 360 Visor; a Sin Eater can be snuck up on and shot in the back.

Really; it all comes down to being useless on Active Turn. TR bots barely slow down experienced players, and the Sin Eater isn't going to phase them either. If they can't shoot it off the board, they'll just toss smoke and ignore it. And when they do that, and you have a 32 point unit sitting there unable to do anything productive, you really start to feel the Sin Eater's shortcomings.

 

Christ that's a lot to unpack.

Well.

Sin Eater has much better armour
He's easier to hide
Much better at dodging.
He has a way better BS
He has access to 4 weapons over 1
He has a good range up to 48' if needed
He doesn't need several other elements in the list to get him where you need him
He can't be hacked.
And his model is better