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Lists: comment and advise

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by Redfaint, Aug 1, 2021.

  1. Redfaint

    Redfaint Well-Known Member

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    have still found a thread here. Thought a general to rate and give tips is not wrong.

    I'll post my list below. Somehow I'm not that happy with it yet. I don't really know what I'm missing yet.

    I know the mission, the table and also the opponents play a role. I can only say about the mission, it will probably be something to press a button. I just like to have a rough structure for my lists


    So a little more information on advice. As already said, the mission is not a specific one, I just like to have a base list and then change it for each mission.

    The link consists of asawira, ghulam and barid. The asa as attack piece, the ghulam has smoke and the barid keeps hackers away from my asa who can handle hacking with his bts 9 well on his own.
    Otherwise: the t1 often goes to my fidays. the daylami can either advance or make a coordinated attack. The fo nadhir is waiting for the opportunity for a good template shot. The other nadhir likes to be my t2 or t3 attack piece. the hd also offers me good flank possibilities.
    the farzen coc is pushing the puttons and the minelayer happily lays mines but is not to be despised as an attack piece either



    Hfjd
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    ASAWIRA (Lieutenant) AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39)
    GHULAM (NCO) Rifle, Grenade Launcher, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 15)
    BARID (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device [UPGRADE: Trinity (-3)]) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
    FIDAY Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
    AL-DJABEL Rifle, Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Viral CC Weapon. (0 | 33)
    FARZAN (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24)
    FARZAN (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    NADHIR AP Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 27)
    KAMEEL (Deactivator, Repeater) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 8)
    SHIHAB REMOTE Heavy Machine Gun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 24)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3 [​IMG]2
    DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 8)
    DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 8)
    FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    NADHIR (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Flammenspeer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24)
    KAMEEL (Deactivator, Repeater) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 8)

    4 SWC | 295 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
    #1 Redfaint, Aug 1, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2021
  2. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    I'm going to guess a mission to undertake, a table layout/density to review, and opponent force?
     
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  3. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    Having specific information about the type of button-pressing mission would be very helpful for commenting. Not knowing specifically, the only thing that stands out is that the number of general specialist seems low. However, this could be mitigated by the mission choice.

    Any chance you could provide more background? How do you plan to us your list? Do you have the links chosen?
     
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  4. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for updating the Original Post with more information. Note that I am only a Vanilla player, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. Based on the information you provided, my only concern is the vulnerability of the 3-man core of the Aswaira, GL NCO Ghulam, and Barid. It is strong and has a lot of flexibility, but it seems very fragile. The Aswaira is an obvious LT and the link will definitively be in the mix and aggressive. Even with Farzan CoC, link seems like it will be an obvious target and perhaps a core weakness. I do not know how to fix it, but just want to make sure that you are aware of it

    After re-reviewing, you have the following specialists:
    • Barid KHD
    • Farzan CoC
    • Nadhir FO
    Three seems really low for a button pushing mission, especially since the Barid will be with in an aggressive link moving up and the Nadhir FO is serving as a sacrificial ARO piece in the second group with limited orders. This leaves the Farzan to do the lions-share of the work and it cannot be in two places at once. I have the following suggestions:
    • Change the Farzan Minelayer for a Farzan FO. The Farzan FO, in my opinion is one of the best specialists in the game and has so many tools. It is hard for me not to use one in my Vanilla Haqqislam lists.
    • This suggestion is based on theoretical knowledge as I have limited experience with these new units: You might wish to switch the Nadhir AP Marksman with a Shujae AP Rifle. Sure you lose HD and the extra range of the AP Marksman, but you gain better BS, an additional 4" of deployment, and another specialist. In addition, with it being already on the board you have another order to feed the very hungry Fiday and Al-Djabel. It might be worth the trade.
    If you make those changes, you will have five specialists, with the majority already in the mid field to do work. I hope these suggestions help.
     
  5. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Since you're looking for a base list that you can then modify for specific missions, I'd suggest sticking to one Fiday. There are definitely missions where you might add a second Fiday back in, but overall, Fidays suffer from fairly steep diminishing returns when you bring more than one. Removing Djabel would free up 33 points.

    I'd also remove the TR bot. TR bots aren't bad - although they're at their best when you have an EVO hacker - but in this case I don't think you can spare the points. You already have Daylamis and Nadhir for defense.

    That would give you 57 points with which to add some more punch to the list. I agree with @Brokenwolf that fleshing out a full Core link would be a good option.

    I'd also rejig group 2 - you have 3 regular orders but nothing to spend them on. One option would be to replace the group 2 Kameel with a Mutt. With impetuous, you'll have 4 orders to spend on the Mutt (plus more with command tokens as needed) which will make group 2 a lot more useful.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    From my experience facing Hassassins and my limited experience playing them; I don't think there's a reason to bring Kameel. Especially Daylami are almost always going to be worth a lot more than the (unprotected and hard to hide) regular order that the Kameel bring, and while a Nadhir can survive long enough to merit a reload, that is still the exception.
    I do agree with the above posters on filling the Core, Asawira just gets utterly ridiculous with a full Core; Daylami can provide the defensive measures that a TR Bot would typically serve against everything but Ariadnan Were-menagerie, if you need to find points. I would personally not chuck the double Fiday into the sea, though, as in my experience it's seldom that a board has a layout in a way where a Fiday won't significantly delay your opponent (though there are some armies such as JSA that won't quite need to respect Fiday as much as others - Al-Djabel is good here as he's a shooter as much as melee monster that regular Fiday are not).

    I wouldn't personally be worried about the Asawira LT. It is very uncommon that they perish given their high PH and BTS, and a Farzan CoC is prudent but often redundant. Only real problem is that the Farzan CoC becomes fairly passive.
     
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  7. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    It's an interesting question. Generally, I'd say if you go first you'll always be happy to have two Fidays. If you go second, you have to deploy them a lot more conservatively and they become midfield lurkers instead of alpha strikers. They're good in that role, and you won't be sorry to have two of them, but there are potentially better alternatives like the Farzan minelayer.

    The OP list definitely needs to free up some points, but you're right that removing Djabel isn't the only way to do it. One or both Nadhirs could go instead. If it were me I'd be removing the Nadhir MMR, because she doesn't appeal to me on paper, but I haven't tried her on the table so the OP should try her out and draw his own conclusions on that one :-)
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Nadhir with Flammenspeer is terrifying regardless if you expect it or not, but one with a Marksman Rifle is just another skirmisher.

    The benefit of the Fiday is that they mess with your opponent's priorities. I write that as someone who frequently has priorities messed with by Fiday. Compared to a Farzan who'll quickly be flagged down for a skirmisher of limited offensive capacity, a Fiday can deploy further forward and will be known for being death for anything not great in melee and potentially Al-Djabel.
    I liked running a tripple Fiday list when I tried Hasassin out, but that's a bit excessive. They kind of tripped over themselves. Only opponent who dealt with them well was another Haqq player who let their Muttas and a bit of luck clear two of the Fiday out and then simply ignored the last one thanks to Hafza trickery.
     
  9. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I can agree with all this. Except that I wouldn't write off the Farzan as having limited offensive capacity. N4 shotguns are just go good. The Farzan is a significantly better shotgunner than a Fiday or even Djabel (both get surprise attack, but the Farzan also has mimetism.)

    I actually find that in N4 my Fidays use their shotguns a lot more than they use their CCWs.

    Both are excellent units, though. Possibly, any skirmisher with a shotgun is an excellent unit.
     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Aye aye. But with "limited" I mean that as in the Farzan starts typically on the less aggressive side of the mid-field and be near on identical to several of your opponent's markers. Farzan is very milquetoast among skirmishers, even if skirmishers are quietly the game's power units (Did you see the pun? (That, too, is a pun. (I'll see myself out))).
     
  11. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    I'm going to try a different perspective on what your opponent sees when you field that list.

    First off, you have no real sustained long range weaponry. Panzerfausts and Flammespeer are ammo limited and burst one. So they are essentially sucker punches that may hit and it's bad if they do. Of course, all of those are hidden and they don't 'really' know what you have the first time or two you use the list as above.

    However you two have two Fiday to plop down in embarrassing locations that can be difficult to neutralize. The exact flavors aren't terribly important so much as there are two Impersonation markers roaming around. You have two camo markers that are guaranteed to be Daylami due to their lack of Mimetism. You have two to three other camo markers which are guaranteed to be Farzan and/or mines depending on how clever you're being. Lastly you have hidden deployment and/or Ragik because your model count is way too low for the observed point value. But all of these will require you to basically get to within 16" if not 8" to fire for best effect.

    The rest of your visible forces have the sole lieutenant option as pointed out above and they aren't shooting terribly far either.

    I'm not exactly sure what all the remotes are for, although I supposed they were the cheapest orders you could find to fluff out the list.

    In opposing what I can see and reasonably theorize I should engage you from the longest ranges possible and crowd in with troopers with templates to auto hit the mimetism stuff. I'm not going to deluge you with suggested changes are there are plenty above. So I'll just leave off with this advice.

    You have a plan above for some of the things but several others have no plan. If there's nothing they can do perhaps you should consider dropping them for something that does?
     
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