Hello, I've browsed the forum posts a bit and was surprised to see that other people asking for list advices which have few camo markers. A list with equip mirage and van zant was interesting to see and I wonder how many Ariadna players play as such. I've a lot on my mind to ask actually but let's get started with my list: Ariadna ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 8 VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6) VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6) VAN ZANT AP Rifle / Heavy Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 38) VETERAN KAZAK (X Visor) T2 Rifle, Light Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 38) WULVER T2 Rifle, Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 33) LOUP-GAROU Viral Rifle, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21) ZOUAVE (Sapper) HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30) LINE KAZAK Lieutenant Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) GROUP 2 5 1 1 SPETSNAZ (CH: Ambush Camouflage) HMG / Pistol, CCW, Knife. (1.5 | 38) UXÍA McNEILL (Covert Action) (CH: Limited Camouflage, Superior Infiltration, Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 27) CHASSEUR (Minelayer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20) FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18) IRMANDINHO Chain Rifle, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 8) MÉTRO Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 8) 3.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army The lists seems strong in theory or on paper. It has a lot of big guns (HMG's, 5 burst bs weapon, T2 weapons, viral rifle), nice equipment (X Visors, Marks. L2), nice skills (climbing plus, sixth sense), tough units (NWI, 2W), strong ARO unit (sapper & mechanized HMG to control the battlefield), possible coordinated order with 4 Suppressive Fire weaopns and an ace to play (Van Zant). First question: What do you think of this list and how would you compare this list to typical camo spam ariadna list? I've asked the second question because when I search Ariadna vs Pano in google (I was losing with this list against a PanO friend yesterday), most of the forum posts discuss Ariadna camo spams. I've played only Ariadna so far and what I dislike a lot about Ariadna is that the abundance of irregular orders. Ariadna troops aren't cheap and camo spam lists should have a large amounts of irregular orders which I don't like. For example, I've never ever played with T2 Cateran. The low burst 2 cannot fight against a total reaction or neurokinetics guy. The same thing can be said for tankhunter's autocannon. I'm only left with HMG's to take down possible problematic Total Reaction or Neurokinetic guys. Also, I don't consider ariadna camo spam lists to be strong. They may trick novice players but an experienced player wouldn't fear the abundance of camo markers. They are squishy, typically 1W 0Arm 0BTS. You shoot at it and you kill it, that's it. There is nothing worse than 1W 0Arm and 0Bts. An experienced player wouldn't waste his orders on discover but he will wait until the Ariadna player reveal his troops. My PanO friend had tons of visors (1x MSLV3, 2x MSLV2, 1 x MSLV1) which negated the advantages of my camo markers. Plus, he had a troubling multi-sniper with MSLV2 and mimetism on top of a tall tower. My Spetnaz HMG died unluckily early and I coulnd't take that troubling ARO multi-sniper during the whole time. When he set his rifles or HMG's under suppersive fire with coordinated order (mimicking my suppressive fire tactic), I couln't break his defensive line when my Van Zant and Spetnaz was down and his sniper was on top of the tower. It is not fair that Ariadna lacks a lot MSLV equipment when my PanO friend had inexpensive mimetism and TO camo guys on top of his MSLV army list. He counters my mimetism in BS shoots but I cannot really counter his. I've tought that direct template weapons is a good solution against ODD or TO camo but then, the opponent gets a free unopposed shot which can easily kill my troop. It is more useful when the template hits multiple targets. Second question: How to play when I take the "second" (not first, as corrected now after posting) turn after losing the lietunant roll? As Ariadna doesn't have any TR or Neuro. HMG guys of which I'm jealous, I'm only left with Suppressive Fire option but I cannot put my troops in Suppressive fire in my reactive turn. The burst is important and I consider sniper or missle/rocket launchers to be weak aros unless one spams them (possible, multiple cheap linke Kazak snipers or missle launchers). As there is pie slicing, those ARO pieces will be picked one by one if they are alone. When I played against my friend yesterday, he won the lietunant roll but not me (PanO does not have low WILL, no.) He got the first turn but not me. My open sapper died. I learned yesterday that if l don't get the first turn, then I should forget about my sapper's ability and hide him behind a wall outside of enemy LoF to save his valuable HMG for later actions. Thank you all.
Why no Antipodes, Devil Dog, or Strelok+K9? Sensor is one of the most potent anti-camo tools available to us and helps make up for the lack of MSV2. The 8/6 order split is also risky, if you go first you'll be on 6/6 (5/5 if we don't count VZ and the irregular) which sometimes isn't enough to get everything done. I'd advise dropping the Wulver for an Antipode Assault Pack and some Galwegians, the standard Gals are fantastic anti-camo as they can intuitive attack even if they fail their discover, and anything that's revealed will die to the Berserk attacks in CC. Gals and Antipodes are also so cheap they're worth sacrificing to kill enemy TO/ODD. Finally, find the 2 points to upgrade that Foxtrot to a second Chasseur.
My question was not "how to play against camo spam". It was about "is a typical camo spam better than my specific list above?"
Sorry, already reworded some of my post to be more general, failure on my part. Ariadna don't play like PanO at all but you can use that to your advantage. Getting a Galwegian or Antipodes into CC with a Croc Man or Swiss Guard is a massive win, expect your troopers to die but make sure they take something out with them. Reactive turn can be tricky, my best strategies have been a defence in depth, having Chasseurs, mines, and hardcases as the first line (Chasseurs are the best ARO piece in the game within 8" due to 6th sense and LFT) backed up by decent strong AROs like the Caterans and Grunt sniper. Each one isn't that powerful but the idea is to force your opponent to spend so many orders dealing with them that they're unable to take objectives or overstretch themselves opening themselves up to a counter offensive on your turn.
Camo Spam isn't the only way to play Ariadna, they work best as combined arms IME. Blackjack, Ratnik, Vet Kazaks, etc are all solid rocks, our Warbands are on point as a screen and for piece trading, and the camo provides a lot of utility both in long range offense, specialists, and defense.
IMO you're looking at camo spam wrong - from a 40k point of view - rather than as a tool in the toolbox. You don't spam camo markers as a strategy (high level), you use camo units as a tactic (low level). List building in Infinity is different from other games in that you have to think more about local interactions than global trends. Camo units do certain things well, as do aggressive units, as do ARO pieces, as do Specialists, as do pure alpha strike pieces, as do flank guards. There's a bit on how to play camo here: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/going-second-woes.24556/ Just substituting my graphic as an example, Camo Infiltrators don't need to deploy at the midline. A Chasseur minelayer at the red positions is in a good position to roadblock, but is also in a good position to be sensored or visored, outflanked and killed. Conversely, the same Chasseur in the green positions has coverage from (1) visors, because they can't see him outside of his effective template range, (2) smoke CC because they can't approach without eating a mine - mutual coverage, and (3) is equally dangerous regardless of the engagement distance and whether or not we're discovered because we forced a close range engagement. RE: Orders. Ariadna orders aren't expensive. You're playing two Regular Volunteers so you see just how cheap they are. Compare that to a faction like PanO where the cheapest Regular order is 8 points and doesn't have a gun. Your 8 point orders are Volunteers and Metros with rifles that can hurt people - most factions pay that for a flash pulse bot. I had the same impression when I started playing but grew out of it quickly when I started playing other factions. Infinity is a game of stacking modifiers. If you don't think you'll be in a position to do that effectively, you have a wealth of units to draw on, to ensure that your opponent's turn will be slow and painful. Infiltrating Minelayers, cheap infiltrating Metros, autocannon / ML / T2 snipe AROs with extremely narrow sight lines, etc. You also have tools for killing problem pieces - Uxia kills the Sin Eater, Spetsnaz HMG kills the TR bot, etc. Part of playing a low tech army is recognizing that you won't usually have power pieces that can just blitzkrieg the fuck out of your opponent - you need to play it smart and force advantageous matchups. That said, your guys are relatively cheap compared to other factions. Think like a dirty, dust-ridden down-trodden insurgent.
Short answer: yes. Your opponent cannot shoot and kill your camoed troopers. He has to discover them first, and that's the tricky part. He will have to commit a lot of resources: either orders spent on discovering or points on MSV3 - that piece of equipment is expensive like hell and pretty much an overkill against every army except for camo spam - or a bunch of sensors and/or sniffers to deal with your sea of camo markers. That is the whole point. In Infinity nothing is unkillable. The question is if the resources spent on killing the trooper worth the investment. Every order spent on discovering the camo markers is an order spent not on killing your troopers or doing the mission. I hope this helps. PS HMG Spetsnaz is just awesome but be careful when to reveal him and like everybody else will die for (un)lucky crits.
As a slightly different perspective on "camo spam", I'm experimenting with zero-camo armies & it can be surprisingly effective, (though it could maybe be seen as a 'harder level'). Mainly it's cos you're no longer spending the points needed for the camo skill, so that leaves you with points for more/better troops.
When I read camo spam, I think of way more camo than what you have here. Compared to other factions, Ariadna troops are cheap. You are just looking for other tech that Ariadna by design doesn't have. The cateran should be kept back to cover firelanes. They are deadly from a distance. As for the irregular orders, its par for the course playing with Ariadna. If you focus on CHA, you can use Wallace to make them regular. Ariadna is a unique play style. Make use of the tools you have at your disposal. There is not a one shot solution to the tech that the other factions have. Camo has it's place, as do smoke, and the aggressiveness of warbands, dogs, etc. Make use of template weapons, grenades, and T2 ammo. Good luck to you.
If you're not a fan of irregular orders or camo as much but still want to stick with Ariadna I'd suggest give the US faction a try. Marauders with snipers and MSV 1's make excellent ARO pieces. Forward deployment allows them to usually find a great starting location just outside your DZ and camp out. The link teams in general will add a lot of versatility and ARO power to your turn with the increases to your burst and BS. Minutemen marksmen on supressive fire are excellent defense pieces and can ruin someones day. Mavericks are great movement pieces, either use the FO profile for late turn objective grabbing or the Light Rocket/SMG profile for midfield defense. You don't sound like a huge fan of irregular orders but the Devil Dog team gives you sensor to deal with any enemy camo and You're going to always want to give the dog at least one order a turn so it being irregular becomes irrelevant. In a similar vein the desperadoes are excellent piece trading cruise missiles. Use their impetuous and irregular order to fly up the board in smoke and then once you've closed range allow your opponent to choose between dodging and eating a B5 assault pistol or shooting and getting hit by the chain rifle. Here's a sample US Ariadna list that I think might work well with what you're looking for based off of your previous comments. (It's quite different from how I normally play them but I think equally effective.) USAriadna Ranger Force ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 7 1 2 MARAUDER (Multispectral Visor L1) Sniper / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29) MARAUDER (Multispectral Visor L1) Sniper / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29) MARAUDER (Fireteam: Haris) Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22) DESPERADO Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11) GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11) AIRBORNE RANGER (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun / Pistol, AP CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 21) MAVERICK Submachine Gun, Light Rocket Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22) GROUP 2 8 1 2 DOZER Rifle, Akrylat-Kanone / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) MAVERICK Submachine Gun, Light Rocket Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22) DESPERADO Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) 112 Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 12) ROSIE Light Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22) GRUNT (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) GRUNT HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 21) GRUNT Lieutenant Rifle, Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14) GRUNT Paramedic (MediKit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) 6 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army Like I said, it's a funky list but does a lot of what you're looking for and provides four MSV1s. You also have several specialists to accomplish almost every classified you may need. I'd also suggest perusing the Dice Abide's EXCELLENT forum on US Ariadna tactics and chemistry. https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/guide-to-usariadna-brand-freedom.309/ Good luck!
I thank you all for your useful suggestions, really. Okay, I agree with you that Ariadna troops are relatively cheaper when compared with other factions. I've wanted to discuss Vanilla Ariadna but it is okay. I know fireteams are strong. I would like to play with some deployement infiltrators though. When it comes to deployment infiltration, Ariadna is not the only faction though. This is really a big hype, a lie that I had bought when I started playing Infinity. Your Antipodes have super jump and my Wulver has climbing plus. I'll still stick to my wulver. He isn't just a 2W 3 Arm guy with a T2 rifle. Climbing plus rocks, doesn't it : ). As for the second chasseur, loup-garou and chasseur is the better swap. That foxtrot is a specialist (FO) and I need some specialists in my army list. I understand your suggestion and strategy but can you please elaborate more on the following specific camo spam for example: 2 ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 9 1 SPETSNAZ (CH: Ambush Camouflage) HMG / Pistol, CCW, Knife. (1.5 | 38) SPETSNAZ (CH: Ambush Camouflage) HMG / Pistol, CCW, Knife. (1.5 | 38) CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24) CHASSEUR (Minelayer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20) CHASSEUR (Minelayer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20) FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18) FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18) FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18) UXÍA McNEILL (Covert Action) (CH: Limited Camouflage, Superior Infiltration, Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 27) LINE KAZAK Lieutenant Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) GROUP 2 3 2 HARDCASE FRONTIERSMAN Tactical Bow, Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) HARDCASE FRONTIERSMAN Tactical Bow, Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) GRUNT (Marksmanship LX) Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18) GRUNT (Marksmanship LX) Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18) VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army What I don't like about the above list is the abundance of 1W 0Arm 0Bts troops. There are a total of nine of them. Nine troops each of which to possibly get shot down in a single order. Consider Randomcallsign's list instead. How many 1W 0Arm 0Bts guys you find there? Only the doctor, that's it. I don't want to play squishy Ariadna anymore and there are many alternatives to it as I and other people discuss. One issue I've complained about in the beginning is that typical PanO vs. Ariadna google searches mostly discuss Ariadna camo tactics. Randomcallsign has already provided a non-camo list and there are other forum threads discussing non camo lists (e.g. lists with Equip Mirage). Aridana is the faction that I've started playing with. I would like to try an elite, single combat group Combined Army or Aleph sectorial. Playing with those 2W + NWI invincibles, TO Camo or ODD's.. My hands are tied though : (. Infinity miniatures or accessories are expensive and I don't want to spend my $$'s for those factions at the moment. Also, I cannot always find an Infinity player in my neighborhood to play with. Thanks again very much for your feedback!
The Chasseur FO is only 2 points more than the Foxtrot FO, which is why I suggested it, the Chasseur gets so much better for those points that I wouldn't include a Foxtrot unless I've already hit max AVA on Chasseurs. As for the Wulver, I've used them a bit and they're OK flankers, but he's competing directly with Van Zant and the Vet Kazak for orders, the Assault Pack gives you a new vector of attack (Camo CC with 12" potential jump distance), more smoke, and more reliability against high tech enemy HI and TAGs. Alternatively if you can find the points for the MK12 the Wulver gets much more favorable odds when he can outrange enemy rifle class weapons.
You note not liking 0 BTS troops. With the exception of the Blackjack and the new Ratnik, literally no Ariadna troops have any BTS. It's a low tech faction. As far as 1 W, 0 ARM troops, I agree, we have a lot. But these Volunteers, Line Kazaks, etc shine in their sectorial, not really in vanilla. But for 8 points or so, you aren't going to get an Onibawan or Joan of Arc. You are getting cheap as chips chain rifles, maybe a paramedic specialist, and cheap orders for your heavy hitters. To each their own with preferring Super jump and climbing plus. For me, both get me to a roof pretty quickly. And the dogs being able to jump 8 inches in a single move gets me up the table pretty quickly for some devastating CC. I've been caught off guard with a pair of hidden TO troops before. It's a tough beat when you think you have the upper hand. If Ariadna isnt fitting your play style, then you could always try and re-sell what you currently have. Alternatively, buy the new Coldfront battle back, supplement your Ariadna force and add Aleph to give them a try. Once again, good luck.
I suggest either doing an army swap or proxying a Combined Army or Aleph list. All that durability seems great until you fail armor rolls. Ariadna may have easy to kill troops, but you can bring 20 of them. A 2W + NWI + ODD unit seems great until a 20 point Rui Shi shoots at it a few times. The only true durability in this game is Tohaa.
We are happy to help! (For the record: I do not like the list you posted for a number of reasons.) The list you quoted can field a reasonable (17 to be precise) number of camo markers. To discover all those markers your opponent will have to spend 13 orders (at least). Now, to shoot them down, he will need 13 additional orders (at least). Now, an elite single combat group army consisting of 10 troopers has 30 orders to spend during the whole game. That means your opponent spends almost all (26/30) his orders to accomplish this task. Even a relatively large army (cosisting of 15 regulart troopers) would spend more than half (26/45) of the available orders to do this. The main point of camo spam is not making your troopers unkillable. This is not possible in Infinity. But you can make killing them order intensive to the point your opponent will just lose the game if he keeps killing your troopers. I understand you like troopers with high ARM. High ARM is overrated. In Infinity you roll ARM only if you have already lost the face to face roll in a gunfight - that means your opponent will not be harmed and only your trooper can be harmed. If you have to roll ARM you are not doing this firefighting thing right. In Infinity winning this face-to-face roll is key. High BS, stacking MODs and using cover properly is more important than having high ARM. Having a relatively high ARM helps to keep your troopers up and fighting but if you do it right, you just don't roll ARM at all. (Indeed ARM is a good thing and there are many cases when you can only rely on ARM rolls for example running into a TO camo CC fighter. I am not saying it is superfluous, I am saying in a standard firefight it makes little difference. And sometimes you fail a face-to-face roll just because Lady Luck frowns at you - and then you need that ARM.) To make things worse, ARM1 or ARM2 is of little use. I advise playing a couple minutes with the dice calculator: http://inf-dice.ghostlords.com/n3/ You will be quick to realize that ARM3 in cover (granting an additional bonus of 3) gives the trooper a fairly godd chance of surviving a hit but having ARM1 or ARM2 (especially lacking a bonus from cover) will make little difference. Go big or do not bother. Regarding Randomcallsign's list it is not only ARM3 all across the army that makes the list appealing but also the units' ability to win firefights. The ability to survive hits when the dice are against you thanks to high ARM compliments this nicely but is not a deciding factor in itself. PS Think of camo state as ARM 20. What is not to like on ARM20?!?... ;-)
In case you find PanO appealing, you should definitely give USAriadna a try! Really, the Ranger Force is the Ariadnan version of vanilla PanO.
2W 5ARM 5BTS troopers can possibly get shot down in a single order, too! (Last one, I promise!) @Captain927 Actually my fourth army was Neoterra. I think I am not a proper Ariadna player. <blushes in shame>
I wouldn't worry about ARM. Personally, due to its cost in points versus effectiveness, I think it's a liability until you hit at least 3 or 4. Infinity isn't a game where you and your opponents take turns donkey punching each other (UGOIGO). Instead, you have AROs, so you can actually make engaging your models a dangerous and order-intensive prospect. A cheap camo infiltrating nerd that takes 5 orders to kill (orders for maneuver, then discover, then shoot) is more resilient than an ARM 4 HI that takes 2 or 3 orders to kill using an AD jumper for example. In Infinity, you don't generally survive by bouncing shots, you survive by winning Face to Face rolls and depleting your opponent's orders. For that reason, IMO one of the most resilient units in the game is the Chasseur. Deployed properly, there are very few situations where your opponent can engage him without first eating a free LFT hit to the face. If the enemy remains, he is relatively hard to hit (mimetism) and can always drop a mine if you think he's going to die. I know HI seem powerful initially, but you're playing a faction that doesn't have any assault hackers. Try playing a HI Pain Train against vanilla Nomads with repeaters under every couch cushion. A unit with visors can be completely shut down by White Noise. One game against Vanilla Nomads was enough to make me never play a Bagh Mari link again.
