1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Limited Insertion and 17 orders

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Triumph, Dec 1, 2018.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,467
    Likes Received:
    2,660
    Now I am on record as saying that I do not believe that making a couple of models generate extra orders was a viable way to get a low model count army to work as I have major concerns about casualties ramping up order loss too quickly. I'm still in that mindset.

    On the other hand. This makes me reconsider my position.

    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
    TAI SHENG Mk12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenade / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 45)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)

    4.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Jamming 17 orders into a 10 model list... is alot and I did not think the idea would be taken to this extreme by CB. I think there are some streamlining adjustments you could make to improve things, but the general gist of the idea is there.

    Personally I'm not sure how I feel about the overall ramifications of being able to create "limited insertion" lists that clearly go beyond the boundries of such. Is this a viable way to combat order spam prevalence? Is this technically order spam? Is order spam the problem or is it actually disposable warband dude spam that's the real issue?

    I doubt this tech will stay with YJ for too long (and I don't think it should be an exclusive YJ thing either, opening up widespread Haris options to more people outside of Haqq has only been good for the game overall) but I'm not completely sure if this won't have a detrimental effect in some ways if it becomes common place to this degree.
     
    #1 Triumph, Dec 1, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
  2. REND

    REND Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2018
    Messages:
    146
    Likes Received:
    172
    I accept your point and somewhat agree with the concerns since orders are one of the hard limits in the game. (You only have so many to complete the scenario and deal with the opponent.) It has, with warbands in particular, given significant advantage to multiple combat group lists that feature disposable troops that the player can gamble with virtually risk free.

    Is it really something that new though? Impetuous has been around for a long time and whilst it's significantly more restrictive in it's use as well as other downsides (like not benefiting from cover) people have had the option to run lists with enormous order pools for ages. Tactical awareness is far, far superior to impetuous because of how much more relative freedom you have in using it on top of not messing with your ability to use cover but the basic point is that some lists have been able to run this many orders in a single combat group for a long time. They weren't limited insertion 1 combat group lists, these were multiple combat groups where this was the interference division. (The Yu jing support mob of kuang shi and monks being a particular example.)

    The weakness is one I think you've highlighted many times in past about the vulnerability of expensive multiple wound models. They can still go down to a single burst of gunshots and each casualty is increasingly impactful as your order pool, options and remaining models shrink.
     
    RogueJello likes this.
  3. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    Messages:
    424
    Likes Received:
    370
    Time will tell whether that tightrope is well balanced. 17 orders, but 2 orders lost for every casualty (including vulnerability to hacking and e/m built in, albeit with some protection )
     
  4. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    918
    17 orders but everything you just got are 7 armored grunts and 2 HMGs

    That's the point. IA lists on average fit between 5 -7 HIs. Trying to fit more severely limits the list flexibility.
    Additionally I've realized that the more extra orders you try to squeeze in a list the more barebones it becomes. Zuyong are just Zanshi in servo armor. Their flexibility in forming fireteams and tactical awareness / NCO just reflects their superior training, which is the embodiment of IA, but in the end they are just basic armored grunts. They have no other skills and they will wreck in CC.

    In a LI format game your list just packs 2 HMGs and has no surprises in the pocket. You just need to lose that pair of weapons in order to not be able to leave your DZ and that can be really easy in such format. A VIRD LI list will most probably pack not only a Kamau sniper but also a Cutter. No matter your 17 orders, you're going to have a hard time. Or to put another example, a Tunguska LI can fit a core of Hollowmen and two Kriza. Against that your iron clad men are outgunned and out manouvered.

    That's the trick with tactical awareness/NCO/Lt2 shenanigans in IA. The more orders you want the less options your list gets.
     
    #4 Janzerker, Dec 1, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
  5. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,858
    Likes Received:
    6,010
    Made something similar recently, two orders less, but somewhat better support structure. The original version had Shang Ji Spitfire instead of one of the HMGs, but no, I still see no reason to use SJ over Zu Yongs.

    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    TAI SHENG Mk12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenade / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 45)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
    HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 (Minelayer) MULTI Sniper, Antipersonnel Mines / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32)
    LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    PANGGULING Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25)
    MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    5.5 SWC | 298 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
    McNamara and Ten Thousand Arrows like this.
  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,467
    Likes Received:
    2,660
    Yep, this list doesn't have much flexibility.

    Yep, this list wants to go first badly.

    Yep, this is a dumb, brute force list.

    That last point is my mild concern with this kind of list becoming proliferated amongst the various factions of Infinity, assuming that going forward Tac Awareness and NCO start getting handed out like candy.

    This list is dumb, it's not tricky, it's got 1 move. It takes a relatively durable core link then attempts to just brute force its way through your Kamau link, TR bots, what have you and win by just running at you on turn 1 and causing enough damage with its stupid amount of orders you can funnel through a single combat group and going deeper than any other core link can. The goal is just to run at you and cripple your order pool so you fall so far behind you can't catch up.

    Will it work every time? No. But will it work enough of the time that this type of list will be popular enough for a number of people to start playing it?

    Maybe. That's what worries me because it's stupid and it's dumb and it basically always does its one thing. It takes the variety in how a game progresses and turns it into a very straight forward known quantity of it bum rushes you turn 1 and either wins or loses right there and then based on how well it does in the turn.

    That, I am worried about what this sort of list means for the health of the game in the long run. That type of game doesn't sound like a huge amount of fun regardless of who wins or loses.
     
    ZlaKhon, Modock and ambisinister like this.
  7. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    858
    The fact that IA, the most brutal active turn sectorial to this day, got released alongside varuna, the toughest of nuts, is certainly no coincidence.

    Classics 10 orders pain train/rambos can be slowed down by speed bumps, disposable bodies and make it so they simply won't have enough orders to seriously cripple you by hiding everything. I'm not sure this kind of tactics will work agaisnt a pain train with 50 to 70% more orders, which makes me think this kind of lists will certainly trigger some meta shifts and force players to invest in more defensive set-ups.
     
    Stiopa and Ten Thousand Arrows like this.
  8. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,858
    Likes Received:
    6,010
    One thing to bear in mind is that most of those HIs lack stealth, and while there are two capable KHDs in the army they won't be a 100% protection. Good Repeater network will slow that link down, especially once one or two members will get Isolated. Tools able to dismantle such network or go after hackers - Hulangs, Zhenchas, Liu Xings - might prove necessary.
     
  9. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,146
    Likes Received:
    9,613
    I'm not sure that list is capable enough, but I've seen a 16-order version that has more specialists in it. It's pretty beastly.

    Though I personally find myself running a little lighter, 9 models with 12 or 13 orders and more specialists.

    We may be overstating the effectiveness of hacking a BTS3 target behind Fairy Dust and Deflector 2. That's effectively BTS6 and WIP-9 to any hacker but the KHD, and it's still BTS3/WIP-6 to the KHD!
     
  10. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    1,353
    Yes, and the weakness of order spam lists is that they can get crushed by elite 10 man teams.

    And then theres limited insertion where IA will do very well.

    Its absolutely being overstated. Your far more vulnerable to E/M and viral. You will live in fear of both.
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,877
    Likes Received:
    8,522
    If only Tinbot B protected against Comms Attacks. You live in cosntant fear of Jammers. That's what you should fear. 'cause this sectorial is missing a lot of things and grenades is one of them.
     
    Jonno likes this.
  12. SpectralOwl

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    646
    Likes Received:
    1,013
    LGL on the Zhanshi, Stun Grenades on Tai Sheng, E/M Grenades on the Hulang. It's not a great selection, but those Stun Grenades will be in a lot of Zuyong Core lists and can shut down Jammers more effectively than normal Grenades, since two BTS rolls to Stun will stop the Jammer more often than 1 ARM roll to KO the bearer. IA can also field a very good Sat-Lock setup, almost as good as PanO, to drop Targetted states on Hecklers and Zulu Cobras for a Zhanshi LGL to kill or Tai Sheng to Stun.
     
  13. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2017
    Messages:
    490
    Likes Received:
    829
    Yeah with tinbot b and fairy dust these guys are very hard to hack.
     
  14. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,146
    Likes Received:
    9,613
    Eh, I'm not that afraid of EM, but I've played a lot of DoTanko+O-Yo JSA lists.

    The stripped-down automedics in the cheap suits (ie, vulnerability to Viral or even Shock in the Zhencha) annoy the hell out of me. The Zhencha is a Guilang that traded the MSV for better ARM (OK, and BS, Climbing Plus, and NWI). It's not a lighter Daofei.


    But even though I think we're overstating the hacking threat, I'm still planning on taking that Haidao KHD in the Core.
     
  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,467
    Likes Received:
    2,660
    You don't fairy dust you bring an EVO and Kaleidoscope, KHDs can't bypass that one IIRC. Additionally you're forgetting the Haidao pops his own -3 into the mix. If you do all that you -12 an Interventor into WIP 3, that's pretty crazy plus because the EVO is here you can reroll hack attacks in your turn. Average hacker fights you on a WIP1, Fusiliers and Bandits can't even hack you period. TBH I'm not sure if we're talking about it enough.
     
  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,146
    Likes Received:
    9,613
    Except Kaleidoscope only protects hackers, Fairy Dust covers all HI. Means you'd need to take both your standard Daoying hacker LT2 and an EVO.

    Plus, Kaleidoscope doesn't stack with Fairy Dust, so KHDs attacking your link team are at WIP-6/BTS3.
     
  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    4,187
    Likes Received:
    4,884
    Why are you bothering with Fairy Dust and Kaleidoscope?

    Haidao using Redrum -9's someone (assuming Tinbot B) and if you use a Chaiyi to get into position -12s them (unless they're a KHD). Move them into the enemy repeater first and laugh. Even vs multiple AROs they're an extremely tough cookie even for top tier hackers.

    EVO + 2 Chaiyi / Husong / Weibang / Rui Shi + Daoying (BSG or Hacker) + Liu Xing is a solid accompaniment to the main Core. So you don't really miss out on much if you do want to go that way though.

    Jammers are a much bigger issue. And outside of dropping a Liu Xing behind them and killing them outside of 8" there aren't many good options. Hulang Stealthing into B2B is probably one of the best (after they've revealed) or a Hac Tao/Zencha using a marker state to get LOF before they can be jammed.

    Re: Daoying Hacker. If you don't have an NCO this profile is actually really great if you're planning on running Supportware. First Special Lt Order reveal and Supportware, then use the second to recamo Recamo.

    Edit: I say this as someone who runs a lot of hackers and has previously relied on the to keep pain trains honest. Between Haidao and Santiagos I'm not sure WTF CB was thinking, because hacking as a strategy to slow these pain-trains is asking for dead hackers.
     
    #17 inane.imp, Dec 2, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
    Azuset, Jonno and Death like this.
  18. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    995
    Likes Received:
    1,353
    Haidao KHD is great to take in a link just to nuke any hackers that dare show their face. I don't blame you for that pick.

    Also, with the wildparrot being a thing now your at least going to be annoyed by E/M a lot. ;)
     
  19. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    4,187
    Likes Received:
    4,884
    Also Zappers and EMarats. Heckler BSG is solid for anti link work as is the Bandit BSG. Those are rapidly replacing hackers in my lists for "oh fuck how do I stop the pain train".
     
  20. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    382
    Likes Received:
    677
    Well there had to be baked in weakness somewhere for IA. It doesn't like viral (and really there isn't anyone out that doesn't mind it) and E/M.

    Hacking is the least of IA's worries but IA isn't some unstoppable ball of doom (nor is Varuna no matter how much the PanO fanboys swoon over it).
     
    Maksimas likes this.