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Lieutentant Revealed if *Killed* ?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by WiT?, Dec 6, 2019.

  1. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Hi there, on our local Infinity facebook page it's been brought up that apparantly, when a model leaves the table, all information about it becomes public. This would include if it is a lieutenant. This would not occur if a model is simply knocked unconscious, as it is not 'leaving the table'. Just wanting to get confirmation about if this is an actual thing or not?

    Also, if a Lieutenant dies this way, but you have Chain of Command in the list, what information is or is not revealed? Is the removed model still "the Lieutenant" when it dies, or has that transferred over, or is only their initial status as the starting Lieutenant relevant and revealed?

    Thanks!
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Hecaton and LankyOgreBP like this.
  3. Musterkrux

    Musterkrux Well-Known Member

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    First question: Correct, only on Dead and not on Unconscious.

    Second question: So, CoC triggers when your Lt becomes IMM-2 or any Null state (including Dead), wherein the CoC model immediately becomes your Lt.

    It depends a little on Order of Operations but my guess is that the 'Lieutenant' tag moves over to the CoC model before the previous Lieutenant is removed from the table, so there would be no positive obligation to declare that a Lt had died.

    However, a trooper's points and SWC become Open Information upon 'Dead' and there are some profiles that have different costs for their Lieutenants. ie. Moderators and Keisotsu being SWC 1 Lieutenants. etc etc.

    So, it could be that when your 1 SWC Lt leaves the table you have to declare: "This model's cost was 1 SWC, meaning it was added to the army as a Lieutenant. [awkward pause] ...However, I cannot declare that this model was removed from the table with the Lieutenant-tag."

    Which sort of gives away the fact that you have a CoC in place but it also only triggers with Lts who have weird SWC costs?

    Gun to my head? I'd say that you don't have to declare the loss of Lieutenant if you have CoC but you would have to note any weird SWC costs for the model if it did have a Lt Tax.

    I could be wrong.
     
  4. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    It seems weird to me that you would only need to "declare" that it was your Lt. if there was something odd about the costs. Especially if it's your original Lt., as Lt. is a skill listed in its profile regardless of actual Lt. status (think XO) and that would become public info. You would simply say that it was your Lt. and when your next turn starts, you say, "I'm not in LoL, BTW..."

    It would get a little weird if you lose someone you had nominated after a LoL as the profile did not originally have the Lt. skill, but I don't think it really matters as you can only go into LoL once a game (unless you decide to put your TO Lt. in HD on first turn...), and we now know that CoC/XO can't use unspent Lt. orders.
     
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  5. LeeroyVinland

    LeeroyVinland O-12 Agent

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    You just say. "Yeah he was my LT" if he goes dead.
    And then if he asks if u are in LoL u simply shake your head.

    Easy as that
     
  6. Musterkrux

    Musterkrux Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that reads better. I suppose you do have to identify that was a model with the 'Lt' profile that died and then in your next turn you just indicate that you're not in LoL. Less confusion, no misrepresentation of facts.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I *think* that a Lieutenant that was chosen at list creation has to reveal that it was a Lieutenant (or Lieutenant L2) when killed even if a CoC shoulders the responsibility. Same goes for a Lieutenant that has been stripped of their Lieutenantship by Executive Order
     
  8. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    To sum up:

    Yes, if your LT enters Dead state, you have to declare that they were your LT, because it's Private Information that has become Open. There are some potential wrinkles if they went to Dead from Unconscious or another Null state first, and you had a Chain of Command trooper present, but even then it would only apply to a 'second' LT going down, because the original one had it on their unit profile.

    No, you do not have to say whether you're in Loss of Lieutenant at this point, because you aren't in LoL until the start of your next player turn.
     
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  9. Gunmage

    Gunmage General Contact Unit

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    ISO for Isolated, maybe?
     
  10. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    So if I'm reading this right, "has Lt in its profile" must be disclosed, and "was my Lt at the time it died" must be disclosed, but we don't know whether "used to be my Lt but no longer was at the time it died" (XO) or "ceased to be my Lt at the exact moment of its death" (CoC) must be disclosed (the potential wrinkles)?

    Incidentally, this one is particularly hard to explain to player who don't read these forums. In my meta, nobody knows to disclose when their Lt dies. And if a suspected Lt dies and you ask "was that your Lt?," they think you're making an improper request and it's nearly impossible to explain, at the table, why you're allowed to know. I gave up on this one a long time ago, and just accept that I won't find out when my opponent's Lt dies. Which doesn't change the rules, it's just a random observation.
     
  11. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    If they do not know a rule, just teach them the rule. Even if they don't read the forum, the rule is in the rulebook and the wiki.
     
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  12. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Do I give this information that my trooper was my LT when...

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Open_and_Private_Information

    1. It is the original Lieutenant and died, it has "Lieutenant written on the profile".
    Yes, this ons is pretty clear.

    2. It is the original lieutenant and died, it has "Lieutenant written on the profile" and I have a CoC on the table.
    I think yes, you don't need to tell them who the new LT is, just that this one was LT.

    3. Is is not the original Lieutenant and dies.
    Yes, it is stated "whether the one originally fielded as such or one appointed in-game." in the rule.

    4. It is not the original Lieutenant, it went unconscious. It then got Coup the Grace.
    I think so, I believe your trooper stays Lieutenant until the beginner of the next round, so even if they were unconscious, they were still the Lieutenant (they could've been healed during that turn and brought back to life to prevent LoL)

    Now the tricky one...

    5. It is the original Lieutenant and has gone unconscious, it has "Lieutenant written on the profile" and I have a CoC on the table. It is then executed by Coup the Grace when it wasn't Lieutenant anymore.
    When it went unconscious, it was LT. When it died, it wasn't LT. Lieutenant is written on the profile.
    I am forced to inform my opponent that "Lieutenant" is on the character profile, but that it wasn't the Lieutenant at his moment of death?

    and we can get some absurd things like

    6. It is not the original Lieutenant, it has gone unconscious and I have CoC on the table, it then got executed by Coup the Face when it wasn't Lieutenant anymore.
    When it went unconscious, it was LT. When it died, it wasn't LT. Lieutenant is not written on the profile.
    I guess I do not have to say anything? As the information shown accurately represents the trooper at his time of death.
     
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  13. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    *Shrug*. You're welcome to come play at our FLGS and, every time an enemy model dies, ask "was that your Lt?" and then argue with your opponent for 20 minutes about why they should have told you if it was. Have fun.

    Anyway, I agree that your six questions above are exactly the right questions, and I'd like to know the answers, since I like to know the rules even when it isn't worth trying to apply them.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Here's my reasoning based on consistency.

    Chain of Command is activated when the LT "enters" a null state. From a bunch of other states, there are to my knowledge no point when a unit is in the state that it is entering when something triggers on entering or when something triggers on being in a state. See for reference, Dogged activating on entering Unconscious and Explode L1 triggering on being Unconscious - if you go Dogged you don't ever get into the Unconscious state and as such don't blow up.
    The line in Private Information tells us Private Information about a trooper becomes Open when the unit "falls Dead and is removed from play as a casualty", the prior is an informal expression while the latter is a result of being in the Dead state.
    As such my conclusion is:

    1. Original LT falls dead.
    -> You reveal it was the LT and what level of LT
    2. Original LT falls dead and you have CoC
    -> You reveal it was the LT and what level of LT
    3. Original LT falls dead, but an Exo or CoC has taken over in a previous order
    -> You reveal it was the LT and what level of LT
    4. Field promoted LT falls dead
    -> You reveal it was the LT and at level 1
    5. Field promoted LT falls dead and you have another CoC
    -> You do not reveal it was LT
    6. Field promoted LT falls dead, but an Exo or CoC has already taken over in a previous order
    -> You do not reveal it was LT

    However, 2 and 3 strikes me as a bit dishonest. I am not certain whether you need to reveal the distinction between being the LT profile and also being the commanding LT at time of death. That is to say, I don't know if this is allowed dishonesty or if it is a misinterpretation.
     
  15. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    My reading of @ijw's ruling above is that there are two distinct pieces of private information which become public when a unit dies: (a) it has Lt on its profile; and (b) it was the actual Lt at time of death. If either one is true, it must be disclosed upon death.

    Given that they're distinct and technically unrelated pieces of information, I would think you have to be clear about which one(s) you're disclosing. So in scenarios 2 and 3, you have to say "it has lt [lv2] on its profile but was not lt when it died."

    Likewise, in scenrario 1 you have to say "it has lt [lv2] on its profile and was lt when it died." Although maybe that runs up against the limits of practicality, and it might be enough to say "that was my lt" and let the opp ask for clarification if needed.
     
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  16. Gunmage

    Gunmage General Contact Unit

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    Not sure this works that way. The way I see it, there are two cases here:
    1) Field promotion means the trooper gains Lt lvl1 skill. In that case, as there are nothing saying the trooper loses the skill upon death or ExOrder activation - you will act in your cases 5-6 exactly as in 2-3.
    2) Field promotion does not grant the Lt lvl1 skill. In that case, in your example 4 you would not reveal that the dead trooper has the Lt skill (because he doesn't).
    I think it's the first one, since that works more smoothly - it's the skill that gives you the special order and the ability to use it, which, as we know, field-promoted dudes do gain.

    P.S. By the way, in case the field promoted guy does gain the skill - the activation clause of Lt Loss goes "If, during the Tactical Phase of the Active Turn, the Active Player lacks a Lieutenant..." What if I, after going into Lt Loss on turn one due to Lt being unconscious, name a new Lt (or use Chain of Command, which explicitly states that it remains Lieutenant in case of old Lt recovering), then doctor my old Lt up, and then lose the new Lt - I have a second trooper with Lt skill, so I don't go into LoL, right? Or do I go into LoL/trigger CoC if any of my Lts fall?
     
    #16 Gunmage, Dec 9, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
  17. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Concerning “there are nothing saying the trooper loses the skill”...

    Among various previous threads: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threa...nant-stop-being-a-lieutenant.3248/#post-44231

    No, you don’t have two lieutenant models (or two troopers with the lieutenant skill) if you go into LoL at the start of a turn due to an unconscious Lieutenant and appoint a new one at the end of the turn.

    Disclaimer: If your point in posting was that the rules don’t clearly state this fact, and it occasionally causes rules discussion, congratulations. You win a “You’ve arrived three years late to the party” cookie.
     
    Gunmage likes this.