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Lieutenants

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Ceilican, May 1, 2020.

  1. Ceilican

    Ceilican Well-Known Member

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    I want to make sure that i'm not carrying any assumptions with me from N3 into C1.

    I know loss of lieutenant isn't a thing anymore. Is it also the case that you do not nominate a new lieutenant (unless specified by the scenario, obviously)? If you lose your lieutenant, that's it, no use of the Lt Order from here out?

    Outside of scenario rules, I can't find any reference that says how to proceed when a LT enters a null state. My assumption is that it's just business as usual, without a LT Order.
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    These are simplified rules. As they don't contain anything that ends the game or massively changes the game when the LT dies, nothing special will happen when the LT enters a null state and there are no mechanics for nominating a new LT that I can find.

    I do expect LoL to return with N4 in some capacity, though, but it is sort of a complex rule that I think it was a wise decision to leave it out of C1
     
  3. Ceilican

    Ceilican Well-Known Member

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    That's pretty much what I figured.

    I've been trying to take C1 as a different game. When I first started list building, I was doing so according to old habits. When I thought about it a bit more, since there's no penalty for losing your LT, it basically makes your LT a single Tac-Aware model.
     
  4. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    That's what it looks like to me as well. Certainly makes for more viable aggressive Lts.
     
  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, Lt order that doesn't transfer and no LOL isn't a bad change for N4.

    It makes losing your LT painful (you lose 2 orders) but not the game-over it often is now. It also means things like XO and COC are still useful (as it allows you to retain the LT order). Admittedly, I wouldn't pay 5pts to CoC if there was no LOL.

    Couple that with LT orders functioning in the same way as Tac Aware orders (ie can be used in a Fireteam) and even factions with less aggressive Lts can get use out of it. This would also be a buff to Elite Fireteams (which often are forced to take their Lt along with them).

    I like that idea.
     
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  6. Bobman

    Bobman MERC
    Warcor

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    I like the decisions LOL creates when building lists personally. The changes to LOL already means it's not necessarily game ending.
     
  7. SpectralOwl

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    It's especially interesting since losing them is twice as painful as any other unit. Getting one killed before you take your turn denies you six orders over the course of the game. As such, you really want a balance between useful, aggressive troops and safe positioning so you can get maximum use out of those orders.

    As an aside, the lack of LoL instantly makes AD/HD LTs or CoC useful again, so that's a little more design space to make use of. I can see LoL staying gone in N4 thanks to the Tiger Soldier LT being in C1 (imagine a new player going from C1 to an N4 with LoL after using a Hellcat or something and instantly starting the game crippled), and because CB seems to prefer people using their LTs aggressively judging by the profiles that tend to get LT options.
     
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  8. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I didn't even think of how it works with AD Lts. That is a nice touch.
     
  9. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    You still might get points for killing enemy LTs, so some of that tactical aspect remains.
     
  10. Ceilican

    Ceilican Well-Known Member

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    From an N4 perspective, I think there should be some impact to command and control when you lose your lt.

    From a C1 perspective, though, the change has me evaluating lieutenant options by what that additional order can do. Hidden fusilier just doesn’t cut the mustard.

    From my new perspective, I’d say Yu Jing has the best selection of lieutenant options. They have heavy weapons with swc discounts and the have specialists. Followed closely by Combined Army.

    I heard someone say once that YJ could be the “command and control” faction, rather than the CC faction. It’s interesting how that sort of happened on a small scale with C1.
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    CodeOne seem to put extra stress on killing the LT in mission design. How much would CoC/XO be worth if most/all missions awarded 1 point for killing the opponent's LT if CoC and XO prevented that scoring?

    We've been saying that ever since IA gave us well above average number of order-generation-per-miniature and gave us well below average number of CC units.
     
  12. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    5pts would be cheap at the price to allow you to use an active LT and not risk the point.

    I think there's an interesting space to eliminate LOL entirely; whether they do or not is a different matter.
     
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  13. miguelbarbo84

    miguelbarbo84 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe, for N4, remaining command tokens could also be lost with the lieutenant...

    That way there is some greater impact to command & control but it isn't the 'death sentence' it is in N3.
     
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  14. Melkhior

    Melkhior Doing filthy things for EI

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    And what will happen to armies like MAF where player is investing points to mitigate LoL? These armies would need complete redesign and I doubt CB will do it right now.

    On the other hand there armies that would be greatly profiting withou LoL. For example Onyx with their selection of aggressive Lieutenants. This will have impact on the balance and CB would need to test and check all armies and many would need modifications.

    We also cannot forget that this change would also made half of the Lt. options useless, because there would be no trade of to take cheap easily hideable Lts and we would see only aggressive Lts or Lts with some special abilities.
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Would MAF really need a redesign? Besides ignoring LoL, they would still provide more than half of the benefits from Morat rule and it's not really like LoL immunity is a big part of their design. Simply dropping a point relative to equivalent troopers would be enough, and had Morats existed within CodeOne we wouldn't be seeing that at all.

    Arguably, there might be need for the Morat rule to be redesigned to communicate their alien nature better, but that's approaching it from a rules-as-storytelling-tool angle rather than gameplay.

    That said, I would kind of like to see 1 OP be "Opponent has lacks an LT in non-null state" be standard for nearly all missions.
     
  16. Melkhior

    Melkhior Doing filthy things for EI

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    Which other advantages of Morat rule you mean? Religious? Benefits from religious are double edged sword and often it is disadvantage. Only really useful part of the MAF rule is Veteran L1 and when you take half of this advantage from it you would need to recost all MAF units. I would say LoL immunity is big part of MAF design, look at MAF Lt options they either cost SWC and MAF is SWC hungry army, or they are active Lt often operating in the middle of the table. Also LoL immunity is really well communicate their nature as never giving up aggressive alien race and Morats always ignored LoL and retreat.

    In CodeOne Morats wouldn't be problem, because cost of the units in C1 are different and any Morat unit would cost same points as their human conterparts.
     
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  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I would at this point in N3 say that Isolation immunity is a bigger deal for them mechanically than LoL immunity - depending on who you face and how you design your army, as you can absolutely design an army that doesn't expose itself to Oblivion and face opponents that won't have Isolating effects.

    But.... I'm just not buying that Morats is an army designed to consistently lose their LT ;)

    You know, losing LoL immunity by way of LoL being removed full stop is not a drawback for Morats so much as an opportunity to have the notoriously expensive Morats rule drop slightly in price. Also, LoL immunity isn't very alien, certainly not as alien as reverting to an egg when wounded or being encased in a living organism as means of combat armour...
     
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  18. Melkhior

    Melkhior Doing filthy things for EI

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    As you said it depends on the opponent. It is nice to have against some armies, but how many armies really have access to good sorce of isolation? Even without Veteran most of the Morats don't care about Oblivion, because you won't see many HI or hackers. IMHO this isn't advatage that you need at every unit in army and pay for it. There is also probability that Isolated state will change in N4 and this will make this advatage even less important.

    Yes, they aren't designed to consistently lose LT and I even didn't say they this, but they are designed to use their LT more recklessly than other factions and their LT is often in dangerous zone where it can be killed by opponent. Also Morat Lts are pretty obvious and easily spotable.

    1 or 2 point drop on some units won't help when your army lacks all tools other factions has and at the same time you lose all advantages you had or they are given to other armies.

    Read Morats fluff. LoL immunity is pretty much Morat thing. Morats fights to the end in every situation and this is converted to the game via Veteran and religious. Morats are angry and killing their commander makes them even more angry and this should be showed in the rules.
     
  19. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Nomads (Morlock with E/M CC weapon, heckler E/Marat)
    Haqqislam (jammer on Mutta)
    Ariadna (so many E/Mauler)
    Aleph (Ajurna E/Marat, Dart and MK5 E/M grenade)
    Tohaa and Spiral (Kriigel pheroware)

    So roughly half the faction have access to good source of isolation (and all other have some form of E/M Weapon and/or jammer)
     
  20. Melkhior

    Melkhior Doing filthy things for EI

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    And most of them must come to your army to really affect all of your models, also all of these weapons have same effectiveness. E/M CC weapons and granades aren't very effective and their usage cost many orders and often you will rather use other weapons. The most dangerous are jammers and even around them you can play effectively without Veteran and immunity against Isolation. I am not saying it is bad thing to have, but you don't really need it on every unit in your army. Defensive fireteam really don't need to have Veteran to be effective against opponent.
     
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