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Lieutenant in Hidden Dep. state

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Ugin, Aug 8, 2021.

  1. Ugin

    Ugin Well-Known Member
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    Here's the text from Hidden Dep. State.
    • The Hidden Deployment State is a special form of deployment that allows the user to deploy during the Deployment Phase without placing a Model or Marker on the battlefield.
    • Until a Trooper's Hidden Deployment State is cancelled, that Trooper is considered not to be on the game table at all. Consequently, such a Trooper does not affect LoF, is not affected by Template Weapons, etc.
    And here's the Activation part from Loss of Lieutenant.
    • If, during the Tactical Phase of the Active Turn, the Active Player lacks a Lieutenant because they did not deploy or the previous Lieutenant is currently in a Null (Unconscious, Dead, Sepsitorized...) or Isolated State, then a situation of Loss of Lieutenant is automatically declared.
    So the question is: If my Lieutenant stays in Hidden Deployment State, it is deployed but considered not to be on the game table at all. Combined with the text of LoL which says "lacks a Lieutenant because they did not deploy...", will I not suffer LoL since the Lieutenant is deployed but only considered not to be on the table?

    Edit: Aside from the LoL, the Lieutenant Skill describes
    So, if I suppose "To avoid LoL, the Lieutenant should be both Deployed and On the game table", the Hidden Deployed Lieutenant activates LoL, since it's Deployed but Not on the game table. Amirite?
     
    #1 Ugin, Aug 8, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2021
  2. Mogra

    Mogra Well-Known Member

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    No, if you start your turn with the lieutenant in
    hidden deployment you start in loss of lieutenant. If in hidden deployment is as the lieutenant is missing.

    Cheers
     
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  3. Ugin

    Ugin Well-Known Member
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    What I'm saying is, it's kinda vague if the Hidden Deployed Lieutenant is actually missing or not.
    • LoL rules say "No deployment, LoL activates"
    • Lieutenant rules say "No deployment on the table, LoL activates"
    • HD rules say "You can deploy the trooper, but consider the model is not on the table"
    It might have been better if the LoL and Lieutenant rules said "If, during the Tactical Phase of the Turn, the Lieutenant is in an Isolated or any Null State (Unconscious, Dead, etc.) or is not on the gaming table(Hidden Deployment State, etc.), the Loss of Lieutenant rule will be applied.".
     
  4. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I think this has always been the reason why it doesn't work to leave the Lt in HD state, for exactly the reasons you state. The Lt has to be on the game table or LoL is triggered.
     
  5. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Do we have Lt option on any of the HD-capable troops in the N4? Or AD-capable troops, for the matter...

    I mean, there were such options in N1 to N3, but all I had access to were removed in N4.

    Aslo: yes, in all previous editions a Lt. in Hidden Deployment or "in drop" (ready for Airborne Deployment) was considered to be not on the table, thus triggering LoL.
     
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  6. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Noctifer has a hidden deployment lt. I doubt there are any with air deployment, but I haven't checked.
     
  7. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Well-Known Member

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    Oniwaban and Shinobu both has HD and LT option in JSA.
     
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  8. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    anithematic of course can be the Lt. as well as the cutter.
     
  9. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    If you start your turn with the Lt in Hidden Deployment, then LoL ensues.

    However, Hidden Deployment can be cancelled by declaring an ARO... so if you go second, you could do the exploit of declaring an ARO with the Lt (even if it's an invalid ARO) to be on the table after the opponent's first turn... dirty, but legal, and the FAQ has not removed the part about declaring illegal AROs to show the HD troop (which, for some reason, everybody was complaining it was unfair because you would get the regular order... or the TacAware in the case of TAGs with the skill. I would complain about the 100% safe Lt exploit, frankly...).

    And yeah, a lot of the sectorials with HD troops have a LT option for said troops.
     
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  10. Mogra

    Mogra Well-Known Member

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    To Declare a ZoC ARO you must be in the ZoC, it's like that since last faq.
     
    #10 Mogra, Aug 9, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
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  11. Ugin

    Ugin Well-Known Member
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    Yes, that's also what I've known, have been taking for granted. But the inconsistent wordings between HD, Lieutenant, LoL rules had me confused, and that's the reason why I've posted this.

    As I've said in my second post, what I'm saying is that it would be better if the ambiguity between "Deploying" and "Being on the game table" gets clarified.
     
  12. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I don't think it needs to? You check for LoL at the start of your turn. If the Lt is not present on the table, for whatever reason, LoL ensues. Some ITS scenarios demand the Lt to be placed on the table, however.

    Now, the Lt entry adds a new factor over those in LoL: the Lt not being present on the table applies LoL. There is no ambiguity, just an effect spread into two entries instead of being on the same entry (which is the reason, when looking stuff in a CB rulebook, you check at least three locations...)
     
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  13. Foux

    Foux Member

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    Hey,
    I'd like to reanimate the discussion xD

    I'd like to point out that LT rules says:
    And HD:
    • The Hidden Deployment State is a special form of deployment that allows the user to deploy during the Deployment Phase without placing a Model or Marker on the battlefield.
    • In your Deployment Phase, write down the position of your Hidden Deployment Troopers in as much detail as possible (make sure to specify whether the Trooper is in Cover, Prone, etc.) in order to show your opponent when their State is cancelled and their position revealed.
    • Until a Trooper's Hidden Deployment State is cancelled, that Trooper is considered not to be on the game table at all.

    So in other word, with HD you deploy without placing the unit. You are writing down it's position to be revealed, not deployed later.
    I'm guessing LT in HD is deployed unit. It would make more sense with profiled LT HD as well.

    Is it possible to get some official feedback on this..?
     
  14. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    - "Until a Trooper's Hidden Deployment State is cancelled, that Trooper is considered not to be on the game table at all"
    - "If, during the Tactical Phase of the Turn, the Lieutenant... has not been deployed on the gaming table, the Loss of Lieutenant rule will be applied."

    The HD trooper is deployed, but it's not deployed on the gaming table, so LoL is triggered.
     
  15. Foux

    Foux Member

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    Yes but xD

    deployed on the gaming table might be interpreted both way imho. Additionaly the hd lt profiles DON'T MAKE SENSE.
    I know I can use them by being second etcetcetc.. But this trick is useless.
    Le't say you play with Cutters. Opponent has to deal with him either way, and you will fight with it. If you choose it as LT you save a bit of point not taking another LT model. However you put yourself in a higher risk.
    From the other hand you might want to make your LT Noctifier - you have to pay additional SWC for hiding LT. Whats the point of hiding LT if it triggers LOL? It doesn't make sense.
     
  16. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I think it's an artifact of N3 where the TO Camo skill automatically included both Camo(-6) and hidden deployment, there was no way to have just Camo(-6). So you would often deploy a TO camo unit in marker state rather than hidden. Lt was just one of the examples where that was best. Most of the profiles that had TO Camo in N3 just got imported unchanged into N4.

    The Barid hacker also pays an extra 0.5 SWC to be Lt even though it makes no sense in N4. In N3, there was value to him having the Lt order because he could use it to put up supportware.

    Anyway, it's possible they're intended to be able to be hidden, but it would need an official answer from CB to change the fact that it doesn't say "deployed," it says "deployed on the game table." I don't think you'll find any support for your interpretation under the current wording. Also, they'd have to change Firefight or "kill more lts" would be impossible to score against some factions.
     
  17. Foux

    Foux Member

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    Ah yes, artifacts!
    I totally agree, and looking forward next FAQ.
    Thanks for sharing your clarification!

    Regarding scenatios, they actually already covered it. Example:
    Troopers that have not been deployed on the game table, as a Model
    or Marker, at the end of the game will be considered to be Killed by the
    adversary.
     
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