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Discussion in 'O-12' started by MikeTheScrivener, Aug 29, 2019.

  1. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    So O-12 has been out for a good bit now – I know some people are still waiting on their minis but for those who haven't been. How are you finding it?

    My gut reaction to O-12 was a good one and they haven't disappointed me yet. I find their play style a little mix of PanO and a little Nomads.

    A typical list for me usually looks something like this:

    O-12
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]4
    VARANGIAN Light Shotgun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    VARANGIAN Light Shotgun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    VARANGIAN Light Shotgun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    VARANGIAN Light Shotgun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    GANGBUSTER Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Submachine Gun, MadTrap / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    GANGBUSTER Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Submachine Gun, MadTrap / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    BETATROOPER Spitfire, 2 Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 41)
    EPSILON HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)
    DELTA Doctor (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun + 1 Yudbot-B / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    [​IMG] YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 5)
    ALPHA Lieutenant (Strategos L2) 2 Light Shotguns, 2 Nanopulsers / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 26)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    LYNX MULTI Sniper, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34)
    KYTTÄ Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    KYTTÄ Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    KAPPA Hacker (Hacking Device) Submachine Gun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 15)
    OKO Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 17)

    5.5 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    I'm absolutely in love with the Varangian Guard – as most people are. They're the gasoline that makes the army run. They give cover to other units, additional visual mods to your Epsilon, and a really nifty way to deal wounds on tougher targets. I really can't see myself not running at least 3 of these guys every time.

    When the profiles were announced I saw myself playing the Omega a lot. I've changed my opinion since the tires have hit the pavement though – O-12, much like PanO, suffers from HMG over saturation. Jeez, every unit worthwhile in this faction is given either a B2 weapon or an HMG. Obviously without link teams those B2 weapons see a lot less flexibility in my eyes. They're not necessarily bad but just less useful. While a Feuerbach is scary in ARO, so is a suppressive HMG. I would probably never leave my Epsilon out to ARO either because he is far too valuable. I like team Sirius but for 30 points and only 1 SWC I sometimes have trouble filling all 6 if I take her.

    Anyway, I really like the Beta! He's quick and agile and climbing+ really lets him use that spitfire to his advantage. and of course, he doesn't wield an HMG.

    Gangbusters are great! Madtraps really let you have some breathing room in terms of defense. I try and take the combi when I can but sometimes those 4 points are pretty important – and against my usual opponents it isn't a big deal for me. With so many hackers on the table you can kind of own the info war game anyway, Team Sirius and Kyttas help with this too as O-12 has very few repeaters. I used to love taking the Cyberghost HD+ but have recently swapped him out for his cheaper alternative. He's still a strong pick though, imo.

    Alpha – He's great. I really hope we see what a mini for this guy looks like soon. He's a near perfect LT and a perfect example of what a guard trooper should do. He's an obvious pick but theres a lot of defense in the faction so I'm not too worried when I plop him down. Of course with the Lynx in HD as overwatch in case any super-jumpers or mobility troopers try and make an alpha strike. (LITERALLY!)

    I really like the fact that we have this reliable alternative to the bog-standard doctor. I almost never take the Lambda when I can take a Delta instead. I see him as having this really great dual purpose which is helpful because realistically theres only a handful of things worth doctoring in this army anyway. Of course as we all know having some type of healing in the mid-field is generally more useful than having it sit in your deployment zone all game.

    I'm really curious about what you guys think!
    How have you been building lists? any crazy games?
    Thoughts on more in-depth strategies?

    I plan on playing these guys in the upcoming Campaign and I'm going to try and get really into it.
    I also plan on writing my thoughts on a deeper tactical level sometime in the near future. Maybe even this Memorial Day when I have some time.

    I'm hyped about O-12, are you?
     
  2. Guiz

    Guiz Member

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    I'll go with O 12 for campaign with one game a week. The gamma is solid but I really think omega is a best choice for heavy loading. Sirius red fury is a monster, you should try it. I'm asking on hyppolita, what's your results with her, did you try the close ?
     
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  3. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    I like the red fury Sirius as well – I often have a need for a beta or back-up type attack piece, she fils the role really nicely but at 29 points she begins to push her its to SWC cost. I almost like the Epsilon SMR better.

    I think all three of our HI choices are good – they're all hammer pieces but do it a little it differently. I often find myself gravitating towards the Beta instead of the Gamma or Omega because he offers a different vector of attack or an alternative approach up the board. None of them are bad though and that's really great.

    Hippolyta is in a really tough spot. She's like a super Varangian. She's not useless but limited. In a mission like Looting and Sabotage – She is an absolute god send. She can crunch the AC2 unit pretty easily while using Eclipse to ensure she gets to do it unopposed. She's also useful against an opponent you know will be taking linked MSV. She is also useful in Decapitation as a Designated target hunter, or as an LT hunter. Super jump, visibility mods, and eclipse make going for rooftop LTs easy. She certainly isn't my go-to for list building, she's far from it, but she has her uses.
     
  4. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    Do you find yourself using the light shotgun on the Varangian much? I found myself favouring the 13pt Double Chaincolt version personally. I found in general the active turn fights I was taking with a Varangian seemed to tend towards using Berserk/Chain Rifles to gain favorable trades. I figured the dual Chain Colt gives me more damage potential over all for minimal cost change.
     
  5. Wizardlizard

    Wizardlizard Well-Known Member

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    I really like 012. I have a lot of factions and flexibilty but I normally play jsa...so pretty different from my normal style.
    I am stubbornly not using the vagrant guard. They are pretty broken and I also hate high order count armies. Yep dont play in non closed tourneys cause that stuff frustrates me.
    I love Sirius and so disappointed that the advance pack is not on the release schedule yet soni could get a 2nd one. I prefer them to gangbusters but add a gb in there and you can lock the middle down nicely.
    Alpha is a must take. Either you take a gamma lt and need back up or alpha is an amazing backfield covering lt. So win win.
    I want the razor to be really good but havent played enough to really get a feel for bang for the buck yet though.
    Betas are amazing and fun and while I miss my defensive links and would love a nice aggressive haris I really like these guys.
    Playing them in the campaign...usually i get about 20+ games in during a campaign so a great way to beef up the learning curve on a new force and with aleph oss force that I was about to sell but now makes great proxies I am all set.
    A bit worried about camo heavy force taking me on as that could be a struggle.
     
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  6. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    That's a very good question. I think I was like a lot of people when we got our hands on the Varangian profile, slightly confused. I pretty much just took the LSG every time and still mostly do, just to mitigate their poor ballistic skill.

    After playing with them, over and over I find the dichotomy between SMG and LSG actually kind of a tough choice. You're probably only going to be using the SMG/LSG on active turn, to force a FtF incase you can't get into base contact on this order or you don't want to lose your Varangian. Otherwise in ARO you're pretty much always going to be chain rifle blasting things that get close or throwing smoke on a 17.

    When you do use your BS weapon, on one hand you do want to bump that poor BS up to usually 13, because of cover. But on the other Shock is a really important ammo type for these guys to have access to. Things like Galwegians, Ghakis, Kuangshi, really anything with Explode, Dogged, or another piece trader like you are going to be a problem for the Varangian – mainly because the Varangian is more expensive than all of them and he only wields an AP CCW. Then, obviously Suppressive in a pinch. It's a really tough choice and I don't think there's a right answer to this question. But upgrading to 2 chain colts isn't a bad way to spend a point. Having more firepower in your DTW is always welcome when you're dogged and possibly bearing down on a link team. That's where the shotgun can come into play aswell – dodging versus 16s is never a great ARO to take.

    They're a really great tool kit, they have a weapon for like every situation and really it comes down to preference – its not like SMGS, shock, or other DTWs are absent else where in the army

    Sorry to hear that, but I would still suggest you give them a try – I really don't see them as broken. Just a decent Warband. I mean, no one really likes playing against Warband in general, they're always annoying and they feel really optimized.

    But I get it – Limited Insertion is a really fun way to build O-12 too.

    It's tough because the only sensor is the FO bot. Which is decent, especially because we have such cheap hackers. IMO I also love using the Varangians to discover and/or intuitive attack camo tokens. Skirmishers are really afraid of a unit like the Varangian because generally a chain rifle blast is curtains for them, then if they do dodge you can engage in CC.

    I agree that the Razor is in a tough spot. IMHO the TO skirmisher is almost like an oxymoron. To me, skirmishers are almost aways disposable – they push a button, maybe kill one thing, or go suppressive, gum the enemy up and they've done their job. When you're spending 17-25 points to do that then you feel like it was worth it, especially when you have multiple. When you're pushing 30-35 points to do that job you kind of expect much more out of your trooper. The middle of the board is the most dangerous place to be – marker state or not. that's where CC is going to be easiest to engage, template are going to be hardest to avoid, mines will be planted, ect ect. a 1 ARM trooper with 12 BS isn't going to last long, regardless of his negative modifiers.

    That's not to say he's useless though. Eliminating TR bots, planting mines, and setting up a nice defense net are all things he excels at. Especially since there are so few mines in the army. Given the right opportunity he can make back his points and then some. It's too bad his specialist options only come with a boarding shotgun, a combi would actually be preferable to me. He also packs D-charges which are pretty important. Looting and Sabotage and highly Classified I can see this guy being a really solid pick, marker state + Charges make it easy to score Sabotage or attack the AC2 unit. Given the defense synergy with Gangbusters he can stay alive longer than his Crocman/Dasyu/Specter counter parts. I would always advise planting mines/resuming marker state before passing turn or you can assume he's dead.

    Trust me, I want to like him. At Gencon I received the Warsenal Razor template, which apparently there is only 1 of – so I have a certain affinity towards getting him to work.
     
  7. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    Sounds like we're both working mostly off of gut instincts. I can see theoretical situations where the shotgun template is a nice pay off but I think I tend to use the DTW on these sorts of troops more than I should which may explain my affinity for dual chain colts.

    They have a BSG on their FO and Minelayer profile which is unusual for Camo troopers. And I would argue is the preferred weapon for both roles. Where the combo of BS 12, TO and +6 Point Blank means you -should- dominate a lot of firefights even other TO troopers don't. That being said the points cost increase for that BS12 still feels sharp.
     
  8. FreezeZ

    FreezeZ Member

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    What are your impressions of Delta and Beta? And as I am not playing much why I see Epsilon HMG everywhere?
     
  9. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    The most glorious thing that can happen to a hidden deployed BSG is an Entire Fireteam coming into view with their second Movement!
     
  10. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    what it really boils down to is preference. 9/10 times you're going to use the chain rifle or smoke/CC. I can probably count the times I've used the LSG or SMG on both my hands out of all the games I've played so far – and even then, it's really only made a difference about half that time.

    Epsilon HMG is everywhere because he is a BOSS. A large incentive of the Epsilon is shooting through smoke to force some pretty nasty negative modifiers. By that nature he's going to be your active turn piece, and thus you probably want to be rolling as many dice as possible. I don't think the MSR is useless – just hard to justify at the same price/SWC. Even if you can't get smoke down, you want to be B4 vs B2 to insure success.

    Delta is great. 1 SWC spitfire is an absolute steal. these guys feel like a really slim but effective Drop troop. I'm in love with their specialist options and I really don't think theres a bad profile. Except maybe the base guy. And even then, he brings Panzerfausts at only 23 pts, so there is even merit in taking that. Enhanced jump on them is worth your while when you're taking the doctor or hacker, or even one of the template profiles. The EVO hacker is also a good investment when you're taking these guys because of AVA 2 Kytta which synergize really well.

    Beta is really awesome too. I wrote about the spitfire above but his doctor option is also really cool for Limited Insertion lists and the like. Climbing + guarantees that he can get even your rooftop ARO pieces back to fighting form. KHD is neat, but he only packs an SMG, it's cheap and effective but there's better hackers in the army and better specialist options on the beta himself. Also Multi rifle Specialist operative is somehow one point less expensive than the base profile? what?! crazy! that's a steal. Spitfire is my favorite though. Solid BS, Mimetism, and good movement – what more could you want?
     
    #10 MikeTheScrivener, Aug 29, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
  11. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    I think that the Shock Marksman Lynx and Epsilon are sleeper picks which will prove their value over time as great SWC-free attack options.

    But beyond that I'm largely in the same headspace as you.
     
  12. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    That's really good to hear – and an interesting take.

    One thing to note is that the Epsilon SMR is .5 SWC - not that it really makes a difference. With free madtraps, 1 SWC spitfire on the Delta, 1 SWC red Fury on Sirius, AVA 2 TR bot and Dakini HMG + Mercs, you'll have plenty left over. I really like him as a group 2 attack piece. Epsilons are really dangerous pieces and a really good asset to have in this army.

    I'm interested to hear your further thoughts on the lynx. For me, the SMR competes with the Plasma carbine as a straight-up gunfighter. I think the SMR edges him out as being better but the plasma carbine is certainly more fun to play. I usually find myself attracted to the MSR, he can pull double duty as a surprise ARO piece or as a surprise forced -12 delete button. Admittedly my usual opponent has kind of caught on to this and tries to bait him out early so he can dispatch him easily with a Mukhtar Red Fury. IMO the lynx usually find his way into my lists, I think just having that element of a marker state on the table somewhere is a game changer in a lot of situations and having that surprise ARO is a huge deal for a lot of opponent's plans.
     
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  13. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    I see the Plasma Carbine as a great tool for DZ defense (in an army which isn't great at that, if you can get through the midfield or bypass it), but limited as an attack piece. But the range bands on the Shock Marksman are great for a hunter/killer who has to cross a lot of the table to get too close.

    Keep in mind that you can take several Lynx, and if you look at successful NCA lists you'll find a lot of top players leaning heavily into multiple Hexas. There's a reason (I think) that the majority of people who looked at the Lynx and saw it as a straight upgrade over the Hexa come from that background. Once you understand how good the Hexa can be, it's much easier to see the potential which the Lynx offers.

    To me it's not a question of "do I take the Sniper or another profile?" for the Lynx. For me it's "which three of these am I building in?"
     
  14. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    DZ defense is a semi-problem in this army. that's true. imho the Lynx plasma carbine really wants to own that mid-field after the way is cleared by one of your HMGs. While the SMR is better at getting there and holding down the range, I think theres merit in having the ability to engage at really close range.

    Especially when we look at the faction as a whole. Stealth is kind of rare. Only 2 characters have martial arts, the only non-merc to have the unnested skill is a dedicated hacker (?) and we have a total of 2 marker state troopers. There's a pretty big hole in troopers that can sneak around jammers and the like. Lynx Plasma really helps with this.

    This is true – coming from PanO I've always held the Hexa close. When a lot of people called the lynx a straight upgrade the only thing I could think about was the absence of a spitfire profile. Sure the SMR is there, but I'd rather be B4 than +1 BS in this case. Mines help a lot though, especially because there are so few in the faction.

    This is a nice way of putting it.
     
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  15. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    I'm going to ignore where we agree, including the Plasma Carbine (which I agree is good and would also include in many lists).

    On the question of the Shock Marksman I think it's very important to be looking at the whole package. And I think that while losing one burst and one damage is significant the upgrade to Shock and inclusion of Mines as well as the increase in BS combine to a package which is very much a better overall choice. The fact that it is also a viable SWC free attack option is simply icing on an already delicious option that I was likely to want anyway.

    LYNX Shock Marksman Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 29)

    HEXA Spitfire / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 30)

    While I admit that losing a point of PH can occasionally matter, I really don't care about the loss of 1 CC and Electric Pulse is amusing but rarely useful. Picking up BS, WIP ('though that, admittedly, matters less here), BTS (again, less important on this profile), Courage and Mines is just great.

    All for a point less and no SWC?

    Yeah, it's good.

    Actually, to be fair, it's only two we can take not three. But when the biggest discussion is how to best use our limited availability it's pretty obvious we're onto a winner, right?

    I mean, we haven't even discussed how good that KHD is (and it's GOOD).
     
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  16. Vaulsc

    Vaulsc Well-Known Member

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    My main point of learning so far is that you don't want to over-crowd one particular role just because the options available for it are so good on paper. If your list has a Lynx Sniper, Epsilon Sniper, Gamma, etc, there not enough mid-field presence. Better to try and spread out the efficiency.

    I also think that double gangbuster is the way to go in non-LI lists. I like 1x KHD and 1x combi for the light riotstopper. There's always going to be an optimal position on the table for each, and it will be a different spot per profile, rather than simply putting your first KHD in the best spot, then finding a sub-optimal space to put the KHD in.
     
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  17. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    To be fair, that's pretty true of most Vanilla builds. But that doesn't make it any less true here.

    The thing about the Lynx is that it's a great multi-role unit. Each of those profiles is bringing something different to the table, and they are all bringing a great package of skills and attributes together with the equipment necessary to do those roles well.

    Yeah, the more I noodle the more I think you want one of each along with your 4 Varangian and 'bots as part of your core build. Bringing the Combi also makes sense as without a Marker State they just need to be able to shoot out a bit more than the average midfielder.
     
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  18. Vaulsc

    Vaulsc Well-Known Member

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    Let's say the other guy goes first and happens to have something like KerrNau in unidron link or Druze KHD in DBS link. Pitchers go down, both of your gangbusters die, all of your madtraps are disabled. This is a bit of a loss to bear when you are running 2x KHD, whereas having at least one non-hacker means you aren't risking too much.
     
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  19. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    You have a very apt analysis – But a straight upgrade over the spitfire, I'm not so sure. He is certainly more well rounded but there are often times I wish I had that extra burst, regardless of ammo type and damage. And I wouldn't mind spending that 1.5 for it – just because often times weapons are so cheap elsewhere in the army.

    I like your thinking though, the lynx SMR certainly has his niche in this army.

    easily the best KHD in the army – hands down.

    For sure – I touched on this in my initial post – there are a ton of HMGs in the army. So often I find myself spending SWC on nothing but HMGs and have to bring the list back to the building phase. Between TR bots, Gammas, Omegas, Epsilons, and the Dakini its very easy to get tunnel vision. Though with the Lynx I think he fills enough of his own role he has little overlap with other trooper profiles.

    Double gangbuster is always the staple. I find that when you take the KHD the biggest thing you're giving up is the riot stopper. They get rushed really easily if those Mad traps are cleared early. Then he's as good as dead. I find that a lone KHD can be easily overwhelmed by an enemy hacker – but multiple KHD gangbuster and nearby Kytta offer another layer of defense. On top of whatever other hackers you may be bringing. The Cyberghost or EVO synergizes well here too.
     
  20. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    Is that a ? about why a hacker would need stealth Or just more double checking yourself to see if you forgot about a unit?