Alright, I know I'm far less experienced than others on this board, but that means they're a treasure trove of knowledge for me and those like me. At the same time, talking (or typing) stuff out often helps me solidify my own thoughts and solve whatever problem I'm puzzling over, even if all the other person does is listen. So I'm going to put up some of my thoughts on fireteams in our new Sectorial and hopefully we can get a discussion going. So, first the Cores. I'm pretty convinced that both the Yadu and Deva standard Cores are traps. Both end up very expensive, the Yadu even more so, and the Devas definitely don't bring enough to the table to justify it. Yadus... bring a lot of sheer power to the table, especially as a Core, but cost so much I'm not sure any five models could justify it. Hell, if you wanted to run a Deva core you could do it mostly satisfactorily and much cheaper by running a Dakini Special Core and subbing in the two Devas you're allowed to. The Dakini Core I basically see in either a defensive configuration or an offensive one. My personal lineup for the defensive is two ARO pieces - either both MSRs or one of them a Samekh - with two standard Combi Dakinis and a CSU of either the Breaker Rifle or BSG varieties watching their backs. The CSU either gives you a BSG waiting around a corner for anyone thinking they're going to get behind the main ARO pieces, or the ability to hit BTS instead of armour at a longer range than the BSG's Nanopulser, both for slightly cheaper than a Combi Dakini. Since this is a defensive fireteam I don't think you need a Specialist, but I could maybe see the argument for the Breaker Combi CSU. If only so you aren't caught out by someone ducking under the Breaker rifle's +3 range. The Offensive build, I'm not as decided on. I'm thinking either a HMG & LGL as the SWC weapons, with either a BSG CSU and a Paramedic Dakini or the AHD+BSG Deva and maybe a Breaker-armed CSU, with the necessary number of Combi Dakinis to round it out. But then I was thinking that if this is the offensive Core, maybe swap out that HMG Dakini for the Spitfire Deva? And if that happens, should the AHD+BSG Deva come in for cyberwar like in the HMG build, or should there just be a BSG CSU and a Paramedic Dakini? Because one is a whole lot more expensive than the other. Of course, bringing anything but a REM a Dakini link slows it down quite a bit, and even bringing a Samekh means you have a non-Mimetism model which matters for FtF rolls, but I'm... reasonably convinced that the advantages non-Dakini models bring are worth it. Both Dakini links also benefit greatly from Jumper LZ, so I think if you're running a Dakini Core that hasn't replaced too many of its bots with squishy meatbags, you should probably find the points for an Apsara. As for Haris teams, I think the standout teams are 2 Yadus + Deva and 3 Devas. Asura + 2 Devas is not a standout, but is an option with a somewhat gimmicky play I want to try. I know I said Devas don't bring enough for their cost in a Core, and I stand by that, but I feel that both of the best Haris teams are primarily made of them. First off, my reasons for not considering the other options to be as good. A pure Asura Haris is just... ludicrously expensive, and is probably never going to be worth it. It might be fun to do in a fuckaround game occasionally, but other than that... no. Just no. 3 Yadus is substantially less expensive, but considering the utility a that a Deva can bring in the third slot (which I'll go into details on later) I feel that the pure Yadu link is not as good. That said, in my opinion the 3 Yadu link is still viable. In fact, I think it's the best of the ones I didn't list as standout, because of the strengths of Yadus as troopers. Also, Yadus are substantially tougher than Devas, so you might find a pure Yadu Haris retains the 3-being link bonus longer - which would certainly be a plus! 2 Yadus + Asura has a lot going for it, with the MSV of the Spitfire Deva and the anti-camo of the sensor one. As well as that, the ability to put the Asura in a link and still benefit from its LT2 orders with Link bonuses in the HMG Yadu (assuming NCO works like we all hope it does), the potent combination of the Asura and all the options Yadus can bring, and being the toughest Haris in-faction that is even remotely affordable. Even in the face of all that however, that I think the roughly 20 points over the 2 Devas version leaves it wanting, since 20 points can mean a lot. It's still nowhere near as bad as the joke-tier 3 Asuras. It brings a lot of combat power and resiliency, and I know I for one was hella excited to run it when OSS dropped, but. Anecdotes are not data, and a lot of people here are much more experienced than me, but every time I've run it I've felt the points pinch elsewhere in the list. Not helped by the fact that I've usually tried to run a Dakini Core as well, admittedly. As for the obvious, running a Rudra in any of the Yadu links, I am firmly of the opinion that the Rudra is best left untethered to the slower Lhosts, free to run about up and over buildings, putting that Repeater where it needs to be and applying that K1 from angles that deny cover. And the Samekh in any of these... I feel the Samekh does better in a defensive link taking advantage of the Missile Launcher's range, and all of these want to get up close except maybe if you took a HRL or HMG Yadu along with. I could maybe see the argument for a gimmicky Shakti + Rudra + Samekh list, as that would let you take advantage of the minimal benefits they both get from an Apsara as well as build in cyberwar to protect the bots and cover a wide range of ...range... bands, but I'm not convinced of its usefulness. For the Harises I liked before I started typing, 2 Yadus + Deva gives you both a discount on the pure Yadu Haris and some utility you can't find if you take three members of the Assault Teams together. Primarily the Sensor and Spitfire Devas, but also the Forward Observer. If you want a shotgun for close-up, the Deva doesn't introduce any hacking vulnerabilities the Yadu version doesn't already, has a better WIP and Upgrade program for said hacking war, still has a Direct Template BTS weapon in case that's a better option than firing the shotgun, and -1 BS doesn't matter that much when you're looking at +6 whenever you are actually thinking about shooting. Admittedly, the lack of Shock Immunity has the chance to bite you in the arse in a hacking war considering how much KHD users like frying people's brains, but the better program and increased WIP somewhat compensate for that. Shakti does well here as a Haris leader, too. And 3 Devas, while the cheapest Haris and arguably the least useful in direct combat, allows for a whole lot of utility while not wasting too many points on the kinda weird Deva profile. Standard loadout will probably be Haris Sensor and MSV Spitfire, with either BSG+AHD, Multi rifle, or Forward Observer to round it out. The Multi rifle might look a bit weird in that list, but it along with the Forward Observer provide possibly the best ARO options to be found in a Deva link, since DA B2 is very useful, even though it's short-ranged and only Dam13 instead of the MSR's 15 - whereas the FO is the longest-range option on a Deva for its +3 range, and has all the normal strengths of a Flash Pulse, but with B2 from Haris. Finally, for the weird idea that I saw in these forums that I want to try out, the admittedly kinda janky Asura + 2 Devas. It gets you either the wonderful assault piece that is the Spitfire Asura or the sublime hacker and specialist that is the Multi HD+ Asura, while giving them +1B and all the utility of the supporting Devas. That could be a good Haris in and of itself, for all 2 Yadus + Asura is a better assault piece. But the thing I want to try is bringing a third Deva, either the Spitfire if I brought a Spifire Asura or a Specialist if I brought the HD+ (and thus had the Spitfire in the team already). This allows you to move that spare Deva up behind the Haris, and break the Haris up once it hits the midfield only to reform it with the spare Deva. Thus the Devas act as sort of bodyguards to the Asura (as funny as that concept is) and provide it with +1B in the meantime, before letting the Asura go on its merry murderous way with (likely) two Lieutenant orders to itself, while becoming a secondary pain in the butt for the opponent. Now they've got to deal with a goddamn Asura right there, as well as a Haris team making a nuisance of itself, all for only around five to ten points more than the 2 Yadus + Asura option. If you brought a HD+ Asura it can also Cybermask once it's clear, with all the benefits that brings. And I'm not going to get into the Duos as I don't think I appreciate them as much as others, since I usually only use them to get up the table and then break up the team and have both troops go their separate ways. What do you guys think? I'd be interested to hear your opinions on all of this, but particularly the offensive Dakini link composition and the two Yadu links I named as non-standouts, as I think in the course of writing this I've almost convinced myself to reconsider the latter.
Once i receive my third Asura miniature, i'll definitely run a 3-bodies (and what bodies !) Asura haris once, just for the fun of it. OK, let's get serious :) As a defensive link, i think that nothing beat our (mixed) dakini links. MSR, samekh ... in a core team with an arjuna on it is really frightening. And rather cheap in points (in swc, less so). I would fill the team not with combi dakinis, but rather with FO devas for an added flashing nightmare. For any offensive link, i think we must include one spitfire deva (haris/core), except of course if said fireteam has an Asura. Spitfire devas are rather cheap and powerful, plus a good rangeband for an offensive miniature, they would be a very good asset in a fireteam. I would rather use the HMG dakini alone than in a fireteam, because during the active turn, activating and moving it may cause a problem for the other dakinis, it would restrict his mobility, that would be a shame on a 15/10 mini. Plus he is very dependant on having a repeater or a hacker. I'm not really sold on offensive dakini links, sure they are fasts, but they are vulnerable to hacking and to anything that requires dodging (mines, templates ARO ...). I think you may underestimate deva links a bit (well, need more playtest for this through). Linked deva FO is a fearsome asset. Sure, it is more expensive than a dakini point wise, but it is cheaper swc wise, and probably as scary. B2 WIP 15+3+rangeband flash is a big problem for anyone. On NWI troops.
I think you need to edit this and re-post it. You've got some small mistakes (like referring to Rudra as Shukra at one point), and you have crazy big ones that make it hard to understand you (like how your paragraph on the 2 Yadu + Asura talks about upsides of Devas in an link). You also have a problem with run-on sentences that, combined with your uncoordinated thoughts, makes your sentences hard to follow past the second comma. As to the content, first critique: adding a Deva HD of any kind DOES make a Yadu + Deva link vulnerable to hacking when it wasn't before. Also keep in mind Dakini movement is better than those meatbags you mention, giving the offensive link a weakness if you mix-and-match robot soldiers and organic assistants. I also am of the opinion that a 3 Yadu Harris, combining: an HMG, Shakti, and a MR/EM/Dropbear profile is a better, more expensive, version of any Yadu harris that includes a Deva Spitfire (though nothing can replace the Sensor Deva). Then outside-the-box ideas: For a spec-fire list you can actually take 2 LGLs for a Dakini link (hell, even a third outside the link if you want redundancy, and adaptable firing ranges), they only take 1 SWC after all. Oh, and for your Asura + Devas Harris idea that brings along another Deva, you could bring that Deva in a duo with a CSU, probably a specialist, possibly a BSG. Finally, agreement: I have to concur about the Yadu and Deva cores being traps. Devas have nothing long range, and are a tad expensive for what you get (which really adds up over 4-5 minis), and Yadus are just expensive generally, without any real standout ability that would make a core of them seem worthwhile. 3 Asuras has no place outside a LI list, probably a 400pt one. There I can see them causing some real problems for any opponent (who is vulnerable to Spitfires and/or hacking at least).
You can add a Samekh into that core for the longer range and a slight point savings. Still probably not the best use of points with the possible exception of area control missions.
Ooh, I like the idea of bringing a FO Deva or two! Adds a lot to the price, but makes that team even more of a pain in ARO! Yeah, Spitfires are great. Shakti's Mk12 works too, for all she's missing MSV2. Good points about the HMG Dakini, I hadn't considered that - too taken with the idea of the fireteam bonuses with it. Yeah, there is that. And a defensive Dakini team is just... so good. Eh... I'd prefer to throw those in a Dakini team as added extras tbh. The Deva team wouldn't be vulnerable to hacking, yes, but the non-FO bodies would be so expensive for what they bring that you'd be at a disadvantage with the rest of your list. In my opinion, ymmv of course. Thanks for that. I was posting after midnight and after taking my nighttime meds, and I thought I caught all the errors. Probably would have been a better idea to post when that was not the case, but I'm really busy atm with studying for Uni exams and some other stuff. I had been fired up to post that for most of the day, and couldn't get to sleep until I did. I'll have a go at editing, but the run-on sentences may largely stay, as I know I have a problem with them in all my writing. With the 'doesn't add a hacking vulnerability' bit I was specifically referring to BSG profiles, all of which have some sort of hacking device. And yeah, Dakinis have better MV than any of their mixed-link options, and all have Mimetism where none of their link partners do. I'll edit that in - would have thought I'd remember that considering it was one of my biggest worries with them. That Yadu link looks good, although I might swap the HMG for a HRL to get a potent ARO option. Would be six points cheaper, too. Ooh, I like the 2 LGL idea! And Duoing that third Deva with a CSU is a great idea - escort both the Asura and the additional Deva up, and have three midfield problems for the other guy (CSU being the least of them, but still a specialist). Thanks for the critique, and I'll get to editing!
I tried a Dakini Support Link in Highly Classified: Operations Subsection of the S.S.S. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 DEVA Lieutenant (Sensor) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24) DEVA (Assault Hacking Device UPGRADE: Lightning) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 28) DAKINI Tacbot Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 15) DAKINI Tacbot Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13) DAKINI Tacbot Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13) 0.5 SWC | 93 Points Open in Infinity Army It is fast, has expandable "mine-sweepers" and can be a midfield nuisance, after completing the designated missions.
I think in an attempt to get thoughts out you may be making it to concrete of a way of thinking. I have not tried every combinations but I am liking a few. Core: 2 HMG Dakinis, 2 normal Dakinis a CSU with rifle light shotgun specialist operative or 1 HMG Dakinis, 2 normal Dakinis, 1 Spitfire Deva a CSU with rifle light shotgun specialist operative. Both supported by a Danavas. I find this a lot, people will talk about the Dakini core but gloss over that you probably need a 6th model to field it or need to have a hacker in it. The 2 HMG core + Danava is 105 and 2.5 SWC and the deva is 117 and 2.5 SWC. When you start looking at a total price the fact a Yadu and Deva exist makes more sense, as it gives us a way to play without needing a hacker. A cheap Yadu core can be 166 and 4 SWC for 2 HRL and 2 FO where a deva is 137 and 2 SWC for 2 spitfires and 2 FO. To dismiss them without further investigation is a little much while still forgetting needing a hacker in your calculations.
wouldn't that be 4 SWC? Don't forget you can put the Samekh into a Yadu team to save a few points. Operations Subsection of the S.S.S. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 YADU (NCO) HMG / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 41) YADU MULTI Rifle, E/Marat, Drop Bears (Throwing Weapon) / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 36) YADU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, E/Marat / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32) YADU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, E/Marat / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32) Rebot SAMEKH FTO Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 22) 3.5 SWC | 163 Points Open in Infinity Army
Yes sorry ended up in a rush and missed the SWC. I was purposely avoiding Rems as then I would need a hacker and that ups the overall cost, especially because I am anti hackers in linkteams.
May be, but it still gives us the option of it or to curve out the types of hackers. I you run assault and killer hackers then the Apsara buff looks more attractive. Generally the more ways a force can play normally the better and this is one of those cases.
To cheap SWC and increasing points for a escalation basic dakini core to be specialized role, proxys are autoincluded: Operations Subsection of the S.S.S. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 6 DAKINI Tacbot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21) DAKINI Tacbot MULTI Sniper Rifle / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 21) DAKINI Tacbot Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 15) DAKINI Tacbot Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13) CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) PROXY Mk.1 Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14) PROXY Mk.5 (Forward Observer) 2 Submachine Guns, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) PROXY Mk.2 MULTI Sniper Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 24) 4.5 SWC | 130 Points Open in Infinity Army Basic firearms to play agressive; suported by a cheap hacker option, then add a sophotec + netrods + shurka LT. So, if you looking for increase your SWC options you have 1.5 free to add 2scnd hacker like Asura LT HD+ and danavas or an AHD specific, RT bot + hacker/AHD/H+ or single spitfire like the Arjuna unit, or simple; switch the mk2 sniper for a mk2 spitfire or mk4 HMG/HRL for less/more pts-SWC. ------------------------------- Operations Subsection of the S.S.S. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 6 DAKINI Tacbot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21) DAKINI Tacbot MULTI Sniper Rifle / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 21) DAKINI Tacbot Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 15) CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) Rebot SAMEKH FTO Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 22) PROXY Mk.1 Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14) PROXY Mk.5 (Forward Observer) 2 Submachine Guns, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) PROXY Mk.2 MULTI Sniper Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 24) 6 SWC | 139 Points Open in Infinity Army Here you have to expend 161 free pts on LT's without SWC and cheap orders (netrods, pulse flash...FO rems) you have alrready a solid ARO team with assited fire on ML or sniper if you need on tthe finish turn ready, then add the solo pieces and camo/TO skirmishers, Dart, Andromeda, Arjuna shootgun/marskman rifle, Rudra K1/MULTI rifle, Garudas.... to do the middle skirmishes or all in. All without SWC. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Operations Subsection of the S.S.S. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 6 DAKINI Tacbot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21) DAKINI Tacbot MULTI Sniper Rifle / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 21) DAKINI Tacbot Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 15) DEVA (Multispectral Visor L2) Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 33) CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) PROXY Mk.1 Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14) PROXY Mk.5 (Forward Observer) 2 Submachine Guns, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) PROXY Mk.3 Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 21) 6 SWC | 147 Points Open in Infinity Army Last one, this is the most expensive options including 1 Deva, the most cheap cost 24pts with sensor or FO if you want the Deva do any role, here have the optimization in terms of points, not in SWC, you can switch the mk3 to an mk2 sniper to gain +5.5 SWC and free 0.5 SWC to put a hacker options, but the cost points are increased in a few 3pts maxium on this example, you can put 1 warcore using the Devas 24pts option, so... for 3pts of diference you gain extra irregular order here. If you playing with fireteams, you need to think how do the role, if you going to playing the team as active pieces, you need the most cheap options to carry any orders and put only the strong active pieces, ¿you need a visor on fireteam?, go with 1-2 active dakinis like the HMG or sniper, then switch the Deva against smoke dodges, but you also have play the fireteam as active core. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Over that, in terms of eficiency fireteams or specific, guys, leave the Yadus to find how they are the best and cheap options, just using them in a 10-11 order list with strategos1 or Asura LT2s. Yadus core wants to be the most expensive options, including Shakti, cheap HRL and/or expensive HMG and a Rudra... the ML bot dosen't works fine on this team of murder beast with adv. deploy1 buff carrying with her optimal range weapons in favour, let the Rudra boons to destroy the heavy menaces with that k1 added with shock also works with any tipe of enemy unit, more efficient than the Red Fury option, but you paid that 2pts diference between the 1swc on the red fury but you have the power of this buffed weapon with marskmanship cost that -1B dice and better chance to do damage and kill. Yadus options are be strong and active team to destroy and clear the table, like a HI core, but this, all of them are pretty solid than expect to see on this paper, in the table, you have a strong and powerfull deadly link like dakinis, but you paying the most expensive options to do the Yadus role: destroy and holding positions, pretty similar like in Onyx with Rodoks between unidrons, they are the same here in OSS, but the dakinis core options are more able in active turns than the unidron links, also they are more cheap for that if you going on they cheap optimal version. But if you going to rush, go with this. Here are listed all of that expect on this twoo link compositions; Dakinis are polivalent than Yadus in all list, Yadus for they expensive basic cost (no shakti, no rudra, only Yadus and the most expensive the HMG NCO option) cant be must powerfull than you expect they do, so... play the Yadus on the most expensive versions; you only decides in 1 option; strategos1, Shakti LT or Asura, then... ¿Not HMG with strategos with the NCO rules, don't use?, ¿Shakti LT/Asura? put the NCO HMG for sure they can't add the proxys aid in the expensive list like the Asura, without her, you can bring the mk1 hacker/medic or Sophotec, you go here to all in without doctor or engineer, just need a hacker to burn to the end the Rudra, the core and your agressive LT's like Shakti or Asura. Operations Subsection of the S.S.S. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 SHAKTI Hacker (Killer Hacking Device. UPGRADE: Sucker Punch) Mk12, E/Marat / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 40) YADU Heavy Rocket Launcher, Submachine Gun / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 35) YADU (NCO) HMG / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 41) YADU MULTI Rifle, E/Marat, Drop Bears (Throwing Weapon) / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 36) RUDRA K1 Marksman Rifle, Mine Dispenser / Electric Pulse. (0 | 42) NETROD . (0 | 4) NETROD . (0 | 4) LAMEDH Rebot Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) ASURA Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device Plus UPGRADE: Redrum) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (0.5 | 78) CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) 4.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
