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Let's talk about Gamma

Discussion in 'O-12' started by Guiz, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. Guiz

    Guiz Member

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    I like this unit, even if it seems less powerful than omega, IMO. I'm opening this thread to share on gamma, which profile you're using, to tell the success you had with him and this type of thing.

    Fueurbach with FAT lvl 1 is cute, but I prefer 5 dices burst and suppressing fire ability is as good as exp mode feurebach. If feurebach profile had assault pistol like sogarat, I may choose him.
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    The Omega is neat, but when you go around his ODD (via MSV, Hacking, DTW, etc) he starts to get pretty fragile, PH13 and BTS 3 are on the low side for HI.

    The Gamma is more of a Roadblock, effective 3W behind ARM6 makes it the pretty much the toughest non-TAG in the game, and having courage means it stays put when you need it to.

    Offensively a Burst 5 BS14 HMG is still solid at winning firefights even with no visual mods, and a Heavy Pistol is still a strong close range weapon. The Feueueurbach has that +0 band out to 48" and is better at cracking hard targets, or Armoury doors, and is a much scarier ARO over 24" (though still I wouldn't use it as a primary ARO piece).

    I think the comparison between the Omega and Gamma is the classic generalist vs specialist, the Omega is superior at shooting things in the face with an HMG, but when you get outside that role the Gamma has a better answer (though both fold to CC), this applies again to the Gamma's weapon choice, with the HMG being the better weapon for mowing down light units at 16-32", but the Feueueurbach has a few tricks of it's own, at the expense of it's core competency.

    Final verdict, I'm probably going to use an Omega HMG and Gamma Feueueurbach when I can.
     
    #2 colbrook, Aug 12, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
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  3. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

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    I think you're severely underestimating the overkill that is a Burst 3, BS14 feuerbach. I've been using linked orcs to get to that, and they kill shit DEAD.

    Think about it, every hit you land it's 2 saves, so if you land only 2 hits you're already matched almost the full burst of that HMG, and if you land all 3 hits you're making your enemy roll more dice than the HMG will ever be able to force him to. And heavily armored targets will shrug off an HMG in the reactive turn, but won't be feeling so lucky against the Feuerbach.

    The HMG is better for area control because of the supressive fire trait, but the Feuerbach wrecks shop like no one else. Also, the gamma has a heavy pistol for Burst 3 shock ammo if the enemy gets close. It's pretty great, I wish the Sogarat had that too.
     
  4. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    I like the Gamma – I'm a sucker for big power armor. My go-to profile is the HMG, While the Feuerbach is nice, the ability to suppress is a bit nicer. ARM 6 + Cover with an unavoidable -3 is a pretty tough roadblock.
     
  5. Guiz

    Guiz Member

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    I like the idea to take an omega HMG + gamma feurebach :), after all in O-12 I'm in love with limited insertion.
     
  6. ZlaKhon

    ZlaKhon New scale enthusiast

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    I like the Gamma and I already ran him in a limited insertion list, but I struggle to build good lists with sufficient redundancy in both firepower and specialists with 15+ orders that include the Gamma. It's worth noting that SWC aside (which haven't been an issue in my list building yet), one Gamma is almost the same price as two Epsilons, which is arguably better for first turn shooter duty and zone domination missions.
    If the missions for a tournament have a requirement for a single trooper to take a lot of punishment (datatracker or "control this console at the end of the game" stuff), I'd consider making room for the Gamma, but even then I'd try to see if maybe an Omega or Betatrooper can't get the job done at a lower price point.
     
  7. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Current testing for me suggests that the Gamma is the highest performing HI in O12 based on how I want to use HI, but I have a bit more testing to do before I feel comfortable in that assessment. He outperforms his competitors mostly thanks to have extremely effective optimal engagement bands with the combination of full auto HMG and full auto heavy pistol, letting him seamlessly transition from rampart sweeper to door kicker over the course of a game. By comparison, a Beta needs to be delivered to optimal range, and an Omega has the swiss guard problem of only having one good engagement range (be it up to 16", or beyond 16").

    Also, he is the chonkiest boy in faction.
     
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  8. ZlaKhon

    ZlaKhon New scale enthusiast

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    Interesting point about the range bands. In my only test game with the Gamma so far I was forced to engage in the +0 range band a lot due to terrain, so the Heavy Pistol didn’t really come up, but it looks like a nice option to have.
    Would you mind sharing a list that includes the Gamma? Do you feel comfortable running him on high order counts?
     
  9. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Sure. :)

    This isn't perfectly optimised - it's a test list, so it tries to include multiple different profiles (e.g. the varangians are all SMGs in this one but I've split them evenly across shotguns/SMGs before now) - but it's also performed well several times now and the Gamma has been pretty excellent.

    O12 Extremely All Comers
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]2
    GAMMA HMG / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 57)
    SIRIUS Red Fury + 1 SiriusBot / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 29)
    [​IMG] SIRIUSBOT Heavy Riotstopper / Electric Pulse. (0 | 5)
    GANGBUSTER Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Submachine Gun, MadTrap / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    GANGBUSTER Combi Rifle + Light Riotstopper, MadTrap / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    ALPHA Lieutenant (Strategos L2) 2 Light Shotguns, 2 Nanopulsers / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 26)
    KYTTÄ Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    KYTTÄ Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]2
    SIRIUS Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Submachine Gun + 1 SiriusBot / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
    [​IMG] SIRIUSBOT Heavy Riotstopper / Electric Pulse. (0 | 5)
    EPSILON HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)
    LAMBDA Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16)
    YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    5 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
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  10. ZlaKhon

    ZlaKhon New scale enthusiast

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    Thanks! That list is actually a lot closer to my current builds than expected. This is what I am currently considering:

    New general try?
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    SIRIUS Red Fury + 1 SiriusBot / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 29)
    [​IMG] SIRIUSBOT Heavy Riotstopper / Electric Pulse. (0 | 5)
    SIRIUS (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges + 1 SiriusBot / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    [​IMG] SIRIUSBOT Heavy Riotstopper / Electric Pulse. (0 | 5)
    GANGBUSTER Combi Rifle + Light Riotstopper, MadTrap / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    GANGBUSTER Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Submachine Gun, MadTrap / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    KYTTÄ Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    KYTTÄ Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FUZZBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    EPSILON HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)
    EPSILON MULTI Sniper, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)
    ALPHA Lieutenant (Strategos L2) 2 Light Shotguns, 2 Nanopulsers / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 26)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6 [​IMG]4
    VARANGIAN Light Shotgun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    VARANGIAN Light Shotgun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    LAMBDA Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16)
    YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    DELTA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + Light Riotstopper, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)

    4 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    As long as specialists aren't too important, I really like your Gamma list and will try it out for sure :)
     
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  11. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    @ZlaKhon I like that. It's got a lot of single wound elements, but they're all eminently doctorable.

    The only thing I don't have in my Gamma list above but might try to make room for is a Lynx specialist operative. That model has rapidly another favourite, and I feel like it closes the loop on O12's defensive mousetraps. But that's something for another thread.
     
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  12. lord_of_apathy666

    lord_of_apathy666 New Member

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    I ran the Gamma as well as a Lynx Specialist Operative in a list during Oklahoma Onslaught. And the Gamma was consistently an MVP in the lest. Numerous times the extra rolls required by the Feuerbach hits eliminated targets I suspect would have survived if I was using the HMG instead...
     
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  13. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    That's interesting to hear - I personally do slightly prefer the HMG, but I noticed the same thing you're describing when using the Sogorat feuerbach. Properly dangerous ammo types like the feuerbach is packing means you just need to get one hit through, rather than having to land two or even three hits with a HMG to achieve the same expected lethality.
     
  14. ZlaKhon

    ZlaKhon New scale enthusiast

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    This is an interesting discussion to me, because I wonder if I should go through the trouble of converting my second Gamma to HMG (and going through the trouble of painting a second Gamma in general...).

    I used the dice calculator to check how the "less likely to win F2F rolls, but more likely to kill if winning the F2F" argument for the Feuerbach translates into numbers:

    Gamma HMG vs Kamau Sniper (link of 5, shooting DA which is better than AP here), both in +3 range, both in cover:
    Gamma Feuerbach vs Kamau Sniper (link of 5, shooting DA which is better than AP here), both in +3 range, both in cover:
    Gamma HMG vs TR bot, both in +3 range, both in cover:
    Gamma Feuerbach vs TR bot, both in +3 range, both in cover:
    Gamma HMG vs Bao MSV2 Sniper (NOT in a link), both in +3 range, both in cover:
    Gamma Feuerbach vs Bao MSV2 Sniper (NOT in a link), both in +3 range, both in cover:
    Gamma HMG vs. a Squalos, both in +3 range, both in cover:
    Gamma Feuerbach vs. a Squalos, both in +3 range, both in cover:
    My interpretation of this:

    First off, it is very unexpected for me that the "Neither player succeeds" doesn't differ by more than a margin of < 2%. I think a lot of this is due to the Gamma tanking shots with his high ARM value of 9 when in cover. The exception here is vs the Squalos when both parties shooting AP + DA or EXP clearly reduces the odds of the looser of the F2F to pass all their ARM rolls.

    So the main shifts in probabilities is between the Active or Reactive Players succeeding, but the shifts generally seem to be less than 10%, often close to 5%. This includes an increased likelihood for the Reactive player to win the F2F as well as the likelihood for the Gamma to kill someone like Kamau Sniper in one round. This means that any different performance of the two weapons will come up about every 10 to 20 orders spend on the Gamma to shoot at the ARO pieces in question. Assuming that these interactions only occur for maybe 3-5 orders per game, this difference performance will come up every 2-6 games. That can be significant in a tournament, but I feel it is not that statistically relevant that it would overshadow the decision of whether I want to have more burst to spread (e.g. attacking 4-5 units from a good position on a rooftop, realizing that some will need to dodge and worst case I can tank shots from loosing some of the F2F rolls) how important suppression fire is and how much I value EXP ammo ARO on long range. Also the SWC difference might be huge in list building. The only exception to this is vs. TAGs, where the advantage of the Feuerbach is more pronounced, because putting a TAG to unconscious with one order has huge implications on the gameplay. I also ran the numbers on what would happen when the Squalo doesn't get cover and then the Feuerbach has a 28.71% chance of taking the Squalos straight to unconscious.
    The numbers also show that the chance of the Gamma dying are generally far below 5% (even against a Fusilier ML in a link in cover its only 8%), so the doctor argument is very valid.

    My takeaway here is that the Gamma Feuerbach is the clear winner for me since the reduced SWC cost will likely enable other good high burst weapons (Epsilon HMG, Team Sirius Red Fury, Dakini HMG, TR bot,...) to be included in the list, who all struggle a bit vs. high ARM targets, so these pieces will complement the Gamma nicely. So at least for now: I'm not converting a Gamma HMG :D
     
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  15. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    I feel like the feuerbach is clearly better than the HMG.

    B3 on the active gives you enough reliability to be effective. B5 is better, yes, but B3 is *good enough*. Especially on a BS14 plataform. AP+DA is capable of handling anything in the game, while Normal ammo might have trouble with really heavy targets.

    On the defensive, well, supressive is better than a single shot, yes. But it is also limited to 24" range, requires a order to be spent and is a mode that your trooper can be knocked out of. The feuerbach is there. It works even on turn 1.

    That said, I think there are another problem with the HMG profile - it is superceded by the Omega. Omega is the same thing - HMG dude made to win FtF in the active turn, but he is both cheaper and more effective if there is no MSV involved. As an active turn piece, I think the Omega trumps over the Gamma hard. The thing is that the Gamma is a much more resilient ARO piece, and it will trump over the Omega against MBTags.

    Overall, I feel like the Gamma is at the point where I wish the Ratniks were - Not *fantastic* because they are fighting for the position with another unit, but good enough that it can see use.

    If only the ratnik had double rocket launchers instead of a single one....
     
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  16. Guiz

    Guiz Member

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    Don't forget that omega is less good than gamma at short range and against direct template + MSV units as we said earlier. But, with good hmg units (omega, epsilon, spitfire beta) I should try to pairing one of this hmg guy with a feurebach gamma. After all, playing in limited insertion seems playable with O12 and B2 weapons could take more than B4 with FA lvl1 bonus.
     
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  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Just a note here: you're usually better off shooting Stun ammo in ARO against a relatively hard target, as it's the highest-probability chance to stop a Rambo Run. The Stunned state prevents the model from making any attacks, and puts them at a -3 to any other rolls.
     
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  18. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    This was a really good exercise ZlaKhon - thanks. I think my takeaway ends up on the other side of the scale to you, where for nominally equivalent cost I'm willing to pay the SWC for the small edges across a bunch of F2F rolls (because I tend to run somewhat SWC-lite lists), but for someone who wants to max out on big guns I think your conclusion is totally valid. You also make a good point that if you're taking a bunch of other good HMGs already, duplicating the capability isn't giving you a new tactical option, whereas a Feuerbach does (e.g. different ARO options, better TAG-cracking, and ability to slightly outrange enemy HMGs).

    Good work. :)
     
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  19. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    @ZlaKhon Thanks for the math. That means the Feuerbach is the clear winner here. It only struggles vs the HMG when shooting targets the HMG is already struggling to deal with. A linked Kamau sniper really wants you to use white noise to deal with it.

    The Feuerbach has the added benefit of being dual rolled as a great ARO and good anti armor weapon.
     
    #19 Death, Aug 15, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
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  20. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Backlogged Painter

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    If the kamu is linked he probably has sixth sense ignoring the mod to shot back through zero vis. White noise won't help you directly here.

    Land a Delta near the link and hunt mooks to degrade the link, use the white noise to ignore them, or maybe take some chances with a doctor hanging out nearby.