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Lets 'Save Super Jump!' The SSJ movement

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Alphz, Nov 3, 2020.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Example 2 is a lot better and more clear, but it does need two separate lines; one for the movement and one for the measurement (much like how the game sort of needs two LOFs; one for the bullet trajectory and one for the soldier's visual senses - they're not always the same)
     
  2. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    ...here's an alternative, easier fix: Super Jump (+2" or 50mm) on most models, (+3" or 75mm) on S6+, and bump that up or down by 1" if needed for balancing a given profile.

    Et voila
    , without adding falling or any other rules, we've extended the jump distance approximately the same amount as the model's Silhouette height (fudged a bit), which addresses the issue of lack of falling Silhouette height as well as giving more leeway in jumping up onto things. And it can be accomplished purely in Army, without needing to edit the actual rulebook at all or modify how players read the profiles in Army.

    Any takers?

    [edit] Also, I would dearly appreciate snipers and certain other troopers getting a single-use ability to rappel down a building as an Entire Order. It'd keep them from encroaching on Climb+ troopers' ability to shoot from vertical positions effectively, and would be one-way, but it'd be cinematic AF. Currently there's no way to replicate Ghost in the Shell style cyborg drops off buildings, and Infinity screams for more vertical mobility options to enable less flat tables without killing gameplay.
     
  3. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    The big issue then becomes that a Samaritan can jump (almost) 8” straight forward instead of 6” with normal movement. The extra move you’re proposing needs to be in some way limited to only apply in the vertical direction.
     
  4. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    I think that brings up the whole question of balancing profiles by tweaking the distance involved. One of the big considerations is whether a trooper has Mimetism +6 or some other form of mitigating the loss of cover during a Jump, since it factors into the risk/reward question of whether it's better to Move or Jump. Also, the fact that some models are able to Move+Dodge to achieve 6-4 movement instead of 6-2 while ignoring AROs during the second movement makes me think that it might work out OK even if there's not a restriction on that extra movement being vertical.

    There's also the question of how much of a cost increase, if any, would make sense to balance the increased mobility. If current SJ just isn't worth using most of the time, and it costs more than it should, then maybe Super Jump (+1") would make the current points cost reasonable, and Super Jump (+2") or more would necessitate a points cost increase.

    If every model that currently has Super Jump got Super Jump (+1"), would folks think that those models are more fairly costed and useful?
     
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  5. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    Hm. For that matter, the Hulk mega-jump described up-thread could easily be resolved using something like this, on a trooper without Super-Jump: give it Jump (+6"). It's an entire order with no cover, but your model can now Jump 10-12" if you want. This is similar to Super-Jump, but doesn't permit the use of Jump as a Short Movement Skill, and doesn't require a new rule. In N4, the most important distinction of Super-Jump is that it changes Jump to a Short Movement Skill, which is a tactical change. The actual distance moved can be subject to modification at the profile level.

    I think what I mostly want to get at is that we can consider changes that happen by getting creative with the profiles, rather than petitioning CB for rules changes that could be handled at the profile level instead. This is the real strength of N4, tighter core rules and more flexible unit-specific behaviors that don't depend on new rules per se, just unit-specific tweaks to resolution using existing rules.
     
    #45 wes-o-matic, Nov 6, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2020
  6. Riktikticheck

    Riktikticheck New Member

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    Well, if you look at the measurements given, quite clearly they give the lenght of the green "arrow" to be 4" etc.
    The fact that the picture is not in scale should not be an issue, because that is not the point of the thing, although they should have used the right scale to avoid confusion.

    The left side of the building looks to be 3" tall by the measurements, while the right side is 6", which is clearly impossible, but that is not the point of the picture.
    The point being, that you measure from the first point of the base the whole way, and there is no snapping of any kind associated with climbing any more.

    And yeah, jumping seems underwhelming to say the least.
     
  7. Hisey

    Hisey Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, this is exceptionally easy to fix and there's a ton of super complicated suggestions out there that would do nothing but make this an even bigger problem.

    If we can assume the intent of removing falling entirely from N4 was to remove fall damage to avoid the killing of possessed tags and killing your own units for the purposes of classified objectives, then all we need to do is keep things similar to N3, but remove the fall damage.

    When using the Jump skill, you may end your movement in a position where you could fall, straight down, up to your first move value. Done. If the fall would be higher than your first move value, you idle instead.

    This covers both the entire order jump skill, as well as super jump as it just turns the jump skill into a short skill. Now the examples can make sense, you can actually jump over obstacles higher than you can vault, and you can jump off of a building more efficiently than climbing plus, but jump up them less efficiently, since conventional wisdom tells us jumping down is much easier than jumping up.

    There's still no fall damage. The jump skill isn't garbage. Super jump is great again. There's no fiddly bits with extra movement, etc. Plus who doesn't love superhero landings?
     
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  8. Catspaw

    Catspaw Well-Known Member

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    ^ I vote that we make the above an official unofficial house rule to save super jump.
     
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  9. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    If what you want is an easy fix that makes it more viable:
    - the trooper can vault any obstacle lower than his Silhouette without expending Vertical movement as per general Movement Rules

    Just let things jump in a line as straight as possible (using squat vaults etc) to measure distance. Which basically lets you jump straight through Railings in terms of distance measured. But being considered to pass over obstacles with your full Silhouette as far as LOF is concerned as usual with vault movement.

    Vaulting is part of the general Movement Rules and could work like this anyway. But there isn't a single example anywhere if and when vaulting interacts with Climb/Jump.
     
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  10. Koval

    Koval Well-Known Member

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    I think one of the big reasons for the change to super jump was to prevent people from just jumping 4 or 6 inches straight up and shooting from up in the air. Allowing for falling, even without introducing falling damage back into the game, still allows players to do that.

    The midair vault solution solves a lot of the issues people have with N4 super jump while still preventing that unintended use.
     
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  11. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I thought that was the intended effect, and the main point of super-jump.

    But if you're right, then the solution is even simpler: bring back N3 SJ, but don't allow shooting in midair.

    (It only makes sense anyway, nobody can possibly aim and fire a gun while flying through the air.)
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    But what about the animé aesthetic?!
     
  13. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    That has been exactly the point of Superjump, from the first examples involved grasshoper Haqq superhumans, so no, that is incorrect.
     
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  14. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    BS Attack while Super Jump, only in TAK ;)
    upload_2020-11-11_15-26-52.png
     
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  15. Hisey

    Hisey Well-Known Member

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    As others have said, this seems like it's actually the original intention of having super jump, since it's not just extending the distance of the jump skill, it actually makes the jump skill a short skill, allowing it to be combined with skills like BS Attack.

    If we completely remove the ability to Jump + BS Attack, and are instead aiming to only fix the jump skill's ability to get over a wall or get a model up or down a structure, then it might as well have been removed completely and replaced with climbing plus. The only situation where super jump would be applicable otherwise is a lateral jump longer than the unit's first move value.
     
  16. Icchan

    Icchan Well-Known Member

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    In general. Quite a lot of superjumpers have 6" first move, so they can drop from pretty high up. Most of the official partner buildings are 3" tall and two of them stacked 6". That's tall enough that all superjumpers have an advantage in one floor terrain and 6" superjumpers have the advantage in two floor terrain. I'd be fine with that.

    At least it would be better than what we have currently.
     
  17. Snare

    Snare Active Member

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    You'd still have to account for the horizontal distance of the base to get it off the building, taking the jump to over 6"
     
  18. WWHSD

    WWHSD Well-Known Member

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    Are most partner buildings smaller than the larger ones that come with Kladstrom? The low spots along the railing on those buildings are just over 3.25 inches. By the time you factor in the going up and and back down you are at about 3.75 inches and that has not included any forward movement. I don't know the math for calculating the length of a parabola but it seems like it will add more that a quarter of an inch to move a model it's base width plus the thickness of the railing forward. Only models with 6-X moves can jump off one of the big Kladstrom buildings.
     
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