1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Laser Pointers

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Superfluid, Jan 11, 2018.

  1. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    512
    Could using a laser pointer or a laser line to establish LoF or potential LoF, constitute premeasuring?
     
  2. Balewolf

    Balewolf It's all opinion

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    328
    Likes Received:
    540
    No, you're not measuring anything, unless the laser has a built in range finder. You're checking line of fire, which is open information.
     
    #2 Balewolf, Jan 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  3. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    884
    Likes Received:
    1,292
    To put it very mildly, this is a bit of a debated topic. Personally I tend to play that lasers come out after you've already eyeballed it, and completed your move, and there's still a question that needs to be double-checked.
     
  4. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    512
    Some people get fidgety about this sort of stuff, I just want to know i'm free to shoot lasers at any point to better understand the battlefield.

    And obviously I appreciate you can't 'measure' with a laser pointer, but it was more about finding out 'information' about the terrain before you make a move.

    If someone took a tape measure to every building on a table before a game at a tournament, would that be premeasuring? If you just happen to know that all of a certain type of building is always 4.5inches long so you can't make it from corner to corner, you can't unknow that, can you?
     
    prophet of doom likes this.
  5. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    512
    Maybe i'll jut add it to my list of things to ask an opponent before we start a game (i'm going to the UK Northern Open 12 this saturday).
     
  6. gamma ray

    gamma ray Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    516
    Likes Received:
    804
    For what it's worth, I've yet to meet anyone in the UK with anything against it, but as you say, bringing it up before you start is the best way :)
     
  7. Cry of the Wind

    Cry of the Wind Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    350
    Same here in Canada, found laser pointers are all over the place at all times in games at the FLGS as well as major tournaments.
     
  8. Todd

    Todd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2017
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    388
    Lol, spill over from the intent thread, nice. :smile:

    Can anyone cite where the rules actually say pre-measuring is not allowed? I'm talking about a blanket statement that's general enough to cover something like this. All I can find are instances where the rules tell us when/how we're allowed to measure distances (effectively creating the "no premeasuring rule").

    Furthermore, what is the rationale that using a laser pointer/line is "measuring" anything, rather than simply determining a relationship that's explicitly open information?

    I can't believe this is even a thing. :pensive:
     
    Ebon Hand, daboarder, Plebian and 6 others like this.
  9. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,420
    Likes Received:
    5,380
    Consider that the rules ask both players to provide LoF cheking. And that while you cannot measure distances before declaring orders, you can plan ahead, thus checking the firelanes of a position and which things you can see from there (and thus see you, and by things I mean markes, models, etc...).

    For what is worth, in Madrid (Spain) we all use the laser pointers all the time, and I personally use a "construction" one (that draws a line, and has inbuilt "inclination sensors" AKA bubble inside liquid XD), I usually do it (carefully) from my side of the table to indicate LoF of my troops, who I wanna shoot, etc... so we don't have to move around (but in tournaments I prefer to go easy, so most times you don't need the laser to check stuff).
     
    Ebon Hand, Whaleofforum and Plebian like this.
  10. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    2,062
    Likes Received:
    1,791
    Exactly that plus permissive ruleset thingie, and also design intentions given away by rules like Cautious Movement that have "failing to reach safe destination" clause which would be completely obsolete if you could pre-measure everything.

    But the latter one isn't technically RAW, so...
     
  11. Pietras404

    Pietras404 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    27
    I've found something like this:

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Distances_and_Measurements
     
    Superfluid likes this.
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Don't skip the context. That entire section of the rules talk about measuring distance. Might sound like trivial context, but as has been proven it has become important in this debate.
     
  13. deep-green-x

    deep-green-x Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    766
    Using a laser pointer isn't premeasuring since no data on distance is given back to the user (Unless it's one of those fancy range finding ones but that would be obvious).

    Laser pointers allow LOS/LOF to be clarified and as this is open information at all times I don't see how there could be any issue with using them.

    Just don't shine them in your opponents eyes to blind them I guess, that's not how flash pulse is supposed to work.
     
  14. Pietras404

    Pietras404 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    27
    @Mahtamori - I didn't. I answered Todd about general statement about pre-measuring, not the original question about laser pointers - hence the quotation. I don't believe using laser pointers is measuring.
     
    Balewolf, Ebon Hand and Plebian like this.
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    In general, I'd say using "measure" to describe using a line laser to determine line of sight is lazy use of the English Language since it doesn't tally up a quantity. It just doesn't fit any of the formal definitions of measurement unless you go the extra mile to define having versus not having line of fire as an actual quantity (which unless you're making a computer game where it'd be obscured anyway is... a very... odd... way of defining things).
    However, I do note that it's against the rules (if we take the red box out of context) to make tallies before the end of an order; so you're not allowed to count army points before the resolution of an order, for technical reasons you're not allowed to sing before the resolution stages of an order and you're not allowed to take actions that would work towards accomplishing a plan before the resolution steps of an order.
    @Pietras404 fair enough :blush:
    Funnily enough, not against the Concilium Convention (but almost kind of against the International Laws of War)
     
    Ebon Hand, Superfluid and xagroth like this.
  16. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,420
    Likes Received:
    5,380
    Considering how many concilium convention banned stuff Aleph fields, not to mention the everpresent Chain Rifles, I'd say "banned by the Concilium Convention" means "you shouldn't use it because it's so awesome only us should use it" XD
     
    Ebon Hand, Plebian and T. Rex Pushups like this.
  17. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    2,062
    Likes Received:
    1,791
    Tbh my first guess was that this thread was a flash pulse question.

    Just Aleph? Pretty much for every banned weird Aleph gizmo there is a mundane analog in use of everyone else that is also banned by Consilium Convention. See ex.: mines.
     
    T. Rex Pushups and xagroth like this.
  18. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,420
    Likes Received:
    5,380
    Nah, it's just that Aleph has them ALL... the rest of the factions have just some... but considering the Chain Rifle is banned, yet present in all factions... XD
     
    T. Rex Pushups likes this.
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Aleph isn't O-12, though.
    Also, we do know that we're playing at a time when CC has been suspended due to CA.
     
    T. Rex Pushups likes this.
  20. T. Rex Pushups

    T. Rex Pushups Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Messages:
    170
    Likes Received:
    113
    I
    Besides what is a war crime or two between friends?
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation