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Knauf has a steals. Why?

Discussion in 'StarCo' started by Zhecka, Oct 2, 2019.

  1. Zhecka

    Zhecka New Member

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    Knauf is a sniper, but he has a steals. He does not receive any profits from it, but pay the cost for it. Can CB swap steals for MSV2 or Marksmanship L2, which really useful for snipers?
     
  2. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    He is a Fluff character, only recently openly sold. In case of upgrade, he might go for Camouflage instead of MM/MSV... but I doubt it before N4
     
  3. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    CB is not gonna put a MSV2 in the SoF options, so don't hope for that kind of fix. Knauf comes from the manga, so he will not be "optimal", and he is not for the gary stu factions (they have better options) so I think that even in N4 he will remain like that
     
  4. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
    Warcor

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    Did you read the manga? he knows how to be stealthy and make good use of that heavy pistol. It is a fluff based addition.
     
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  5. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    He has Stealth so that he can Silently kill people with his Knife, like he does in the Outrage manga.

    As far as points go, Stealth appears to be so cheap that it's a rounding error, compared to MSV2 or Marksmanship L2 which would add about 10% to Knauf's cost.
     
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  6. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    He does seem a bit overcosted overall though, just like Armand
     
  7. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    That would be thanks to his CC19 more than anything else.

    Knock that down a few points and bump him to BS 14.
     
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  8. Zhecka

    Zhecka New Member

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    Okay, stealth is fluffy, but in manga he is super effective sniper. Now in game I feel him overcosted. Compare him with Cateran (I play starco), Knauf losing, sad but true. He cost more (+8pts +0,5swc). Yes he has BS higher by 1. But Cateran deal 2 wounds with one hit. Their CC is same, both has mimetism. But Cateran has camo and climbing+, and this is much more useful for snipers. Yes, Knauf has multiterrain, but special terrain traits is rare using. I don't think what MSV2 on SoF is game break in case of Knauf, because you need to pay +1 swc for it, 32pts+2,5swc seems fair.
     
    #8 Zhecka, Oct 4, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
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  9. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    a) Soldiers of Fortune is an ITS extra, making him available to all sectorials. Regardless, Knauf is available to all vanilla.

    b) Cateran inflicts 2 wounds per failed ARM roll, not 2 wounds per hit, with Burst 2. Knauf's MULTI rifle allows his B2 to force up to 4 wound rolls. On perfect average, they are the same, and on ARO the average is that Knauf wounds every failed ARM roll, while the Cateran needs 2 ARO to inflict 2 wounds at the same time (this distinction being relevant because the Cateran might be dead at that second ARO).

    c) Climbing Plus is for moving ARO pieces. Not all need to do so... Knauf's Multiterrain allow him some extra options, like for example in this 2nd phase of the online campaign he can ignore the Dangerous Terrain for troops without 0-g/Multiterrain. Climbing Plus only gets the Cateran +1 inch on the first movement... and knauf gets that too because Multiterrain.

    d)Cateran has LIMITED camo. Meaning a single use, either for "surprise" ARO (doubtful) or Surprise Shot. Looking at StarCo, he is obvious, so it's very likely to face a Discover + Shoot order.

    e) MSV is not always costed with SWC, but points. Knauf is already an edge case, increasing his cost in 5pts or 1 whole SWC would make him useless to 99% of players, regardless of StarCo's desire for a MSV2 Knauf.
     
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  10. Zhecka

    Zhecka New Member

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    a) Exactily, and for this point agrument "MSV2 on SoF trooper is too cool" is irrelevant
    b) Cateran inflict 2 wound with 1 ARO, he shot with T2 ammo
    c) Climbing+ allow sniper to get better position on some roof/towers/etc without stairs, multiterrain does not help in this case. And severe terrein doesn't using in most of games.
    d) But this is still camo that need do discover
    e) I mean to give MSV2 to Knauf without increasing cost. May be drop some other things: CC to 15/remove stealth or multiterrain

    And don't necessary give him exactly MSV2 (but it still cool option), this is maybe BS 14/Marksmanship L2/Camo - any of this options make him more competitive
     
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  11. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I agree that MSV2 on SoF is irrelevant, but what I say is that corvus don't like that.
    what xagroth says is that even if cateran inflicts 2 wounds, is 2 wounds for failed arm. The enemy only does 1 save, so if he success, no wound. DA on the other side forces 2 saves, which make the chances of a wound higher, while the chances of 2 wounds smaller.
    also, MSV2 for free.... in a "nomad-like" faction? you know, CB will never do something like that. The same goes for BS14 or higher. Markmanship L2, camo or other options could be seen though
     
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  12. Zhecka

    Zhecka New Member

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    Yes BS 14 maybe a little bit high. But Knauf is ex-panoc man (in manga)? PanOc can into dakka-dakka-dakka. But even if he recieve MML2 or camo, I will be happy. And many other players. In the end, Knauf has very cool miniature, he diserve some sugar)
     
  13. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Sniper rifle == extreme range == deploy in a back corner if possible/not infinite height buildings exist, so only other snipers can shoot at +3. Imposing a -3 by range, -3 by cover -3 by mimetism to almost all enemy units (the only real danger is a Heavy Rocket Launcher at less than 80cm, that is, in front of him and skimming the edge of the enemy DZ), since Missile Launchers are always B1...
     
  14. Zhecka

    Zhecka New Member

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    On good game tables there is no snipers nests in deployment, and in many cases sniper need to go forward and take position. With climbing+ it would be cost 1-2 orders less.
     
  15. Zhecka

    Zhecka New Member

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    BTW, how you play Knauf?
     
  16. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    Cateran is IRREGULAR and that supposes a generous discount. You must always be cautious with irregular troops so that you don't end up building a list scarce in regular orders.
     
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  17. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    On GOOD game tables ONE side has the field advantage, including one height that, while won't dominate the whole table, is a good sniper's nest, while the OTHER side is harder to defend, so choosing between going first and second is not an automatic decision because of what is better for the mission.

    On big tournaments this becomes hard to follow, sure, but not impossible.
     
  18. Zhecka

    Zhecka New Member

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    And if you deploy second - you need to reach your sniper position, and climbing+ still very useful
     
  19. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    The way crits work technically skews this in favour of T2 ever so slightly. I believe something like 1-2% of a wound or so? (5% of the time rolled and ~25% Armour pass on the second DA wound.)

    On the other hand we're also ignoring AP and Stun options that the Multi Sniper can bring to bear.
     
  20. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Plus Knauf gets to add shock to the weapon, so against 1W troopers he's actually more likely to do 2 wounds (unless they're shock immune of course)
     
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