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Khawarij - are we need renaming?

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by Daireann, Jul 8, 2021.

  1. Daireann

    Daireann Well-Known Member

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    I like to look, where the names of units came from.
    In this case I was a little confused to see khawarij here.

    In the history of islam it was a radical religious group, starters of civil was between people of Islam.
    Killed other Islamic people and in the most versions they are left Islam like heretics.
    So, this name associated with really bad things and complicated moment.
    And it was a little confusing even after reading background of the unit.
    It is a game, that is connected with history and our reality, it is not easy to say: “oh, it’s just fantastic. Don’t worry”.

    So, here is a question.
    What do you think about it. Should the unit be renamed (CB already changed Haqquislam flag for example) or not? If yes, how should it be? May be some reorganization of this group and even some event?
    I am not talking about removing them. That is not an option at all, but to make some changes in naming.

    Ok. You turn. What do you think?
     
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  2. Pierzasty

    Pierzasty Null-Space Entity

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    Oh, it's just fantastic. Don't worry.
     
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  3. Lareon

    Lareon Well-Known Member

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    I read some times ago an article talking about how the western world depict islamic culture in fantasy/sci-fi media. The author talked a lot about how CB and Infinity was able to create an interesting and non-stereotypical islamic-like setting with haqqislam, except for few minor slips. The Khawarij was one of them.

    As I agreed at the time, I agree even now that it could be a nice thing to retouch, removing a controversial name to the roster. Being a "western guy" I admit I don't see a problem in the name, but I know that I'm not associated to the culture and the background of that group. And I admit that I would have a little shiver if one of the controversial group of my country were depicted in a game I play, even if it's only a loose connection (or especially because it, as it would alter the perception associated to that name)
     
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  4. Lareon

    Lareon Well-Known Member

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  5. Daireann

    Daireann Well-Known Member

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    Oh yes, author in this article described, why it is so cringe me.

    For the record I think the Khawarij, against all odds, work. It was a terrible idea to name your heroic supersoldiers after the schismatic terrorists who murdered the last Rashidun Caliph. It was a terrible idea to name your educated upholders of justice after the dudes whose defining move, to this day, is to declare anyone who disagrees with them no-longer Muslim and then try to kill them and who have a dogmatic opposition to arbitration. It was a terrible idea to pick a name with ties to ISIS and basically no positive associations in cultural memory.

    And this worried me since I’ve started the game. For now I am avoiding to play Ramah.
    Cause some good units associated with this. (But I want to)

    I am really sorry :( I don’t want to ruin someone’s fun of this good game.
    But may be it could be heard and fixed if you don’t mind.
     
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  6. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    Don't apologize! It's well worth pointing out, and you're certainly not the first to do so.

    Like so many things, we enjoy Infinity despite its flaws. But the flaws are there, and they're embarrassing. At least some things are improving. But N4 was a missed opportunity to rename Khawarijs.
     
  7. Daireann

    Daireann Well-Known Member

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    CB makes different Haqq sign. Not cause new edition or so.
    May be those guys deserve that too) one day.

    And yes, I really like, that CB made actually good Islamic guys and girls in this story.
    I know, there is no actually good factions, but they are fine anyway.
     
    #8 Daireann, Jul 8, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2021
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  8. Pierzasty

    Pierzasty Null-Space Entity

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    IIRC it's because they received actual threats against their company for misusing the name/symbol of Allah?
     
  9. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Next up, rename all knightly orders because they all killed Muslims 1000 years ago. And Jews and Christians.
     
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  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I think it's more that they learned more and it was kind of a boneheaded depiction given the context.

    It's worth noting that the author of that blog post says that, if you understand Infinity, using the name "Khawarij" makes sense, but it will probably be off-putting for people getting into the setting who have a preconception of what that name means.
     
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  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Infinity has several of these questionable name and fluff related decisions. You think Khawarij are bad? JSA is rocking Kempeitai, literal gestapo equivalents responsible for a shitload of warcrimes, brutality, rape, and other nasty shit in occupied SEA, Korea, and China.

    Meanwhile Yu Jing has some questionable shit like the whole "let's pretend Uighurs didn't get genocided into oblivion by the CCP, got along fine with the Han Chinese and became valued citizens despite their religion."

    You're either gonna have to get over it or pick a different game because Gutier gives exactly zero fucks about this stuff.
     
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  12. Sedral

    Sedral White Banner Officier

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    Note that another option could be to have their fluff evolve to better reflect the primary origin of the name. It's kind of what happened with the kempeitai in JSA (no idea if it was really intentionnal from CB though)
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well, yeah, but Dai-Nippon is basically fascist in the setting, so that makes sense.

    That's one of the reasons I point out that YJ is actually *nicer* than the irl PRC.
     
  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Not disputing that I'm just pointing out for OP because he's worried about things being off putting for new people due to naming conventions and Khawarij are hardly an outlier here. People are still alive now that had traumatic experiences (actual child sex slaves, anybody?) at the hands of the Kempeitai but nobody bats an eyelid about them being in the game because weebs or something, I dunno.

    Hell, truth is if my grandfather had been born a couple of years earlier he would've been rounded up and shot by them and I wouldn't exist.
     
    #15 Triumph, Jul 10, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2021
  15. Pierzasty

    Pierzasty Null-Space Entity

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    chromedog likes this.
  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Oh no I remember that thread, my point is nobody really cares. There was a thread three years ago annnnd.... that was it. It's not even like there was universal condemnation in that thread you straight up have people in it defending it as no big deal.
     
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  17. Daireann

    Daireann Well-Known Member

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    So, I see, for some people khawarij and kempeitai (that was a surprise to see such thing in the game. Another “surprise”) are just distant “funny fantasy words”.
    And they prefer to keep it as it is. I know, Infinity doesn’t pretend to be historical game. Ok... but still not comfortable.

    There was an example about rename crusaders and knights. That was not serious example and just adding an absurd. May be you think, this question about renaming is absurd. But I gave reasons, why the name of unit is edgy even in out time. I guess, crusaders are not such edgy image even on the east.
     
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  18. Lareon

    Lareon Well-Known Member

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    I think the entire discussion revolves around the perception of the name used, not the implication (or politically correctness) of having these units inside the game.

    I mean, the focal point is to not revisit existing organization and meanings, washing them from an existing perception to a new one. The Kempeitai was a very bleak org in history, and in Infinity they pretty much gave the same interpretation, as they're absolutely NOT good guys. That's fine, the perception of the name was the same, and we agreed that they were bad in real life, they're still bad in this setting.


    About the Khawarij the matter is a bit different. As little as I know about this topic, the name was associated to a terroristic association, and it has a bad connotation in the mid-eastern world. While in Infinity the name is "washed" in order to give him a more positive and acceptable meaning. Even if I don't see particular problems with the particular case, I tried to translate this thing in my western view, and I found I certainly don't like to see a unit named "Schutzstaffel" or "Ku Klux Klan" in Infinity, depicted as heroic and honorable troops. It's a dissonance in the meaning behind the name, and a hook to "weaken" the bad perception assigned to them. Even if I admit that fearing that a "good guys SS" in a niche wargame could be used as propaganda for right-wind is a bit too extreme and unlikely, at least I would find it REALLY cringe to read or use it in a game.

    That's being said, I think this discussion is a good way to confront about the underlying social issues behind few decisions on Infinity background, without causing polemics. The OP started the discussion with a genuine curiosity, and I feel the general replies were a bit too much on the passive-aggressive side of the barrier :p

    Peace and love!
     
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  19. Daireann

    Daireann Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. I would be more constructive in future. And calm.
     
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