1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Kestril's N4 Aleph Adventures

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by Kestril, Nov 14, 2021.

  1. Drey

    Drey New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2021
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    4
    Atalanta is probably one of my fave units in the game but I'm not sure I'd call her a duelist and I think you lay out the problem quite well. 1W and no mim is already fairly rough on a duelist, but I think the thing that really screws her is the low-burst and that really comes out in how the infinity FTF mechanics work. Its almost always better to put a negative mod on your opponent than a positive mod on yourself. Preventing your enemy from hitting can often be more important than increasing because higher stats are just an increase in volatility and I often say "my Atalanta only rolls 19's and numbers below 10". As an ARO piece you demonstrate the problem well, but as an active turn piece she doesnt want to shoot at anything linked, she doesn't really want to shoot at anything vaguely dangerous because burst 2 v burst 1 is terrible and you're a bad roll away from 44 points down the drain, so she's left shooting at mooks, and if you're shooting at mooks it begs the question "why aren't you running Knauf instead?"

    Running a quick "who wins the FTF" calc, Atalanta and Knauf shooting at the same target with BS10 is an 88% v 87.5% just to win the FTF (doesn't count # of hits or saves). The +1B and mim-3 at Knauf easily makes up for 2 lower BS and lack of marksmanship against the vast majority of targets, not to mention that burst 3 is just a higher crit chance(9% v 14.3%) and will be more consistent than burst 2. The only times Atalanta shines are against mim-6 targets or targets with msv1 that would cancel Knauf's mim which is more than reasonable for a 12 point discount, not to mention that Knauf's CC of 21 gives him a much better chance of surviving or trading with a yuan-yuan or other surprise CC threat.

    Trying to make Atalanta work at every opportunity, I've found that she's mostly a bait model. Her high stats are a noob trap because in the many other games higher stats improve the minimum level of competence, preventing low rolls, but in infinity high stats only improve maximum competence (until you're past 20) so Atalanta's low burst means she's performs extremely inconsistently, letting a burst 4 spitfire on 12's tear through her in the reactive, and her burst 2 on 18's not actually shaping up to be that much better than than a burst 1 panzerfaust on 11's. She's terrifying to see on the field, but once you get past the stat stick she turns out to be a fragile and inconsistent piece.
     
    Kestril likes this.
  2. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    608
    Likes Received:
    431
    HMGs are removed from all AD-Troops. In case of the Garuda its more sad, because an HMG from the side, supported by mimetism was always nice to have.

    A friend of mine thought he bought the HMG model, now realising that is was infact the spitfire makes him happy until he see my shotgun and he thought the HMG has a comback. So much for the look of the Aleph BSG.

    Anyway. Very good conclusion on the Garuda. The big weakness - hacking - was already mentioned. I like the spitfire most, because it can be devastating. The BSG is indeed the weakest option, but with the 6-4 move you are able to reach a good spot, so I think its an option, if you are low on SWC. To sad the Combi has not a updated version. So have to prox to test it out.

    Boosting the Garuda via EVO can be very tricky. Normaly you need those pitchers on a differnt place and placing a REM with repeater cost extra orders. But the benefit is great.
     
    Kestril and Abrilete like this.
  3. Kestril

    Kestril Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2018
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    44
    Yeah, after playing mrrf, I do notice the "armor tax" on units. Basically, things pay for the 1, 2, or 3 points of armor and I find having such armor doesn't make a difference enough to justify paying for it.

    Yeah, there are a lot of "ands" that come with REMs that Aleph has synergy with. I'm learning more about them. It's hard to put the combos within the unit review, as 1) I may have not discovered them yet, and 2) Combos like that can be order heavy or require more investment. I always ask myself, am I giving the unit an overview, or am I reviewing a 20pt bot + a danavas hacker + a 20 point evo bot? It's hard to tell, so, unless something comes up on the table that makes the unit shine, or the unit feels incomplete, then I'd rather leave it out.

    I may do a post on EVO combos, but I do plan to include a bit more musings on it in the Rudras post, as I think that thing's repeater offers it a degree of flexibility to make it stand out when compared to other options.


    It's very tempting to math out every encounter in wargames and apply it to the table or compare each unit's chances and damage in a certain scenario. In some games that keep things fairly static or reply on manipulating numbers through unit abilities or by spending resources, this approach can be very valuable. Knowing the "hard" capabilities of a unit and comparing them to others is always a good starting point. But, it's worth noting that infinity rolls very few dice. If you rolled infinite attacks a unit would win the FTF calculation that percentage of times, however, infinity is swingy, so it's worth eeking out every advantage through positioning or tactical ability before making the roll.


    Because infinity can be statistically "swingy", I often find that that can lead me astray. A unit's positioning on the table relative to their target does a lot more to raise or lower their chances than their hard stats. Furthemore, specialized equipment, skills, and weapons can give them a "soft" stat or role. In other words, I look for a unit's tactical capability first (I'll call them "ANDS"), and then compare all the ANDS they do to a unit of similar cost. (When something is technically capable of performing a task, I call it a AND CAN, as it, it doesn't *want to*, but can in a pinch.

    So, for example, with Atalanta VS Knauf.

    Atalanta denies cover AND denies smoke AND denies ODD, AND attacks at extreme range AND provides threatening B2 ARO.

    Knauf denies Mimetism AND attacks better at extreme range AND CAN see through smoke, AND CAN provide ARO threat.

    So, I would take atalanta over knauf if I wanted the tactical ability to deny movement through smoke in the reactive turn AND threaten more elite units that survive by stacking mimetism and cover in the active turn.

    I'd take knauf over atlanta if I wanted a long-range, consistent gunfighter that could put the active turn hurt on many different targets.

    So no answer is wrong, but by drilling down to the "ANDS" you can find which matches the doctrine of your list. I face aridadna a lot, so the smoke rush is usually very prevalent in my meta, so having a MSV2 reactive piece that hits on 18's can be a godsend.

    I'm actually hoping the rudras will help with that. I just have an idea of the bot scurrying as far as it can forward, getting within ZOC to a good drop point, and calling down the garuda on the other side of a gap to deny ARO's, and then using the garuda to clear the way for the rudras. It may be a little tricky, but 8" is a lot on table, and I think someone could sneak a bot forward safely and buff it that way.
     
    Abrilete likes this.
  4. Drey

    Drey New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2021
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    4
    I don't entirely disagree with you in defining Atalanta's abilities, but I think using her as a reactive piece really only works against fairly unskilled opponents. If an opponent refuses to use coordinated orders, or combat jump, or white noise, or cautious move, or hell even just a bear then I can see it being effective, but those opponents are fairly rare and probably started playing <6 months ago. It'll stop exactly 1 bike charge, maybe, but even that relies on having a great firelane for her to cover and your opponent not just going around, or losing the impetuous orders for that round. I def understand why the ANDs are attractive for her, but you're paying for something like marksmanship when she's best at shooting impetuous units. If you're looking for a sniper that can shoot through smoke and acts as a threatening ARO piece to warbands then may I suggest Armand? 2 wounds, MSV1, mim-6, and decent enough cc that people will at least hesitate to drop a combat jumper on him.

    I will say again too that burst 2 in the active turn is just a huge mistake, even with high stats. Genuinely take a Maruts or if you're feeling cheap then a Deva with spitfire instead, and thats only if youre really worried about fighting mim-6 threats which are exceedingly rare. Most units that have it will slaughter her in the active turn with a burst 4+ hmg and a fair number will do so in the reactive turn (thinking hac tao's, avatar, cutters). In a faction where you have to pay a huge premium for every single unit (Asuras are laughably expensive compared to most other HI of comparable stats) then shelling out 44 points for a coinflip model that you just have to pray gets lucky on every shot is a bit much.

    You mention that Infinity is statistically swingy and I 100% agree with you, its an extremely high-volatility game. This means that its almost always worth it to take consistency over maximum potential and atalanta is the perfect definition of an extremely inconsistent model. If you're leaving her to take ARO's and your opponents aren't coordinated panzerfausting or even just coordinated biking to get past her firelane then I think you need to look for opponents who will offer more challenge. If you fight alot of Ariadna and she somehow isn't getting van-zanted or duroc'd or just having camo markers walk right past her firelane (because if you declare discover then you get shot for free) then I encourage the same.

    I love Atalanta, I've probably run her in well over 40 games at this point so I can say without a shadow of a doubt that she's a noobtrap that you lures people in with shiny abilities and stats and maybe they get lucky on the first game with her, but she is a very weak model for the price you're paying. I'm don't necessarily disagree that "there are no wrong answers" but I would put Atalanta in the "off-meta" category at best. She's no combi-rifle myrmidon for 25 points-bad but she falls apart swiftly to anyone who really has any experience with the game whatsoever.
     
    Kestril likes this.
  5. Drey

    Drey New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2021
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    4
    Super quick follow up, I do really enjoy this style of blog posting on your experiences with Aleph. Its kinda fun watching someone go through alot of the same thoughts I had when I first started playing the faction, so keep up the good work!
     
    Kestril likes this.
  6. Kestril

    Kestril Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2018
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    44
    I'ma indulge on getting into the weeds for this post, but before I start, I think this little tangent showcases how I approach constructing a list and considering units. I think it illustrates my thought process and lets people better understand the perspective I have for this little thread on this little corner of the board. I hope this understanding helps people both learn and play infinity. Here we go!

    I think it's a little unfair. Any argument for a unit can be countered by well, it's counter. Back in N3, you could argue that mimetism and ODD is bad because direct template weapons counter them, or argue that snipers, in general, are worthless because active models will always have the burst advantage. Or go into unit-specific counters like that the avatar is bad because the marut hard-counters it, ect. . . The point of taking atalanta, or any other units, is to make opponents spend those resources to remove them. I think the fact that people readily offer atalanta counters speaks to the lessons she teaches opponents, her effectiveness on the tabletop, and the resources she takes to remove.

    I'm being a bit pedantic, but I want to point out that I could reply, "well, if Atalanta is left in a vulnerable spot than you're just not positioning her right" which is kinda beside the point when looking at a unit to examine it's tactical strengths and weaknesses. By simply pawning off effectiveness on the luck of the dice or the opponent or the board's terrain or the other factors that vary game-to-game, I'd miss the deeper opportunity to learn.

    Point is, there's a lot of dynamic factors at play, and I find it more helpful to create a list on the merit of what it can do rather than the fear of what an opponent can do to it.

    The point is to bait them into taking that suboptimal coinflip or force them to use too many orders to counteract it. Atalanta may be easy to counteract on her own, but what about atalanta and pheonix? Tougher. Atalanta, the total reaction zayin HMG, Phoenix, and a myrmidon put in suppressive fire? Uh, that's tricky, to say the least. All that behind Aleph's layered wall of template weapons like nanopulsars and e-marats? That's gonna throw a big wrench in anyone's plans.

    People can theorize scenarios where a unit can be garbage just as much as theorizing scenarios where they are golden. I'm not trying to do that, rather, I'm trying to convey the subtly of crafting a list with units that remain flexible enough to conquer objectives while specialized enough in their roles to offer mutual support. To do that, it's better to consider the unit in totality rather than the points spent. When the game starts, points mostly go out the window, and each model (with exceptions) becomes worth exactly 1 order plus its ability to help secure you the win.

    A small counterargument may be that if you have to rely on burst 2, then Atalanta would be the sniper to do it. I agree that I'd prefer an HMG or spitfire for active-turn attacks, but sometimes the HMG may be on the other side of the board, or there may not be enough orders to use the optimal attack piece. I'm not saying I'm not saying "forgo the AP HMG rambo to rambo with Atalanta instead." I am saying, "Atalanta is a capable attacker should it be more order-efficient." That said, in my experience, even four dice isn't enough to count on for consistency and I'm STILL holding my breath with every FTF attack roll. It's that X-COM 95% to hit meme, and it's why I love infinity the game.

    Changing topic to the Ariadna paradrop madness: I've played as ariadna before. I know how to duroc people, and can spot when it's coming. Generally, I can deploy in a way to discourage van-zanting and duroc-ing, either making them cost a lot of orders to do or to make it very dangerous to do so. I have found that Aleph can make some damn strong ARO bunkers, can clinch a large FTF advantage, and has ready access to templates in comparison to most forces they face.

    As to my opponents: I've run into a variety of opponents at a variety of skill levels in a local tournament setting (and won a handful of them, according the four ITS exclusive mercs on my shelf) Are there players worse and better than me? Doubtlessly so, but sharing a theorycrafted experience as if I were traveling to play in the bigger settings would be disingenuous, so take my words and experiences with every unit with a grain of salt, and maybe you'll find something that inspires you to try something new or explore and have fun with the game.

    Regardless, speculating as to the relative skill level of opponents without any sort of data quite misses the point of the thread, I feel.

    I mean, it's all about perspective. If framed as Atalanta's point value versus her weaknesses like no mimetism and a single wound, then sure. But, if framed as Atalanta offering a link-team sniper level of ARO to a vanilla faction that doesn't have access to that ARO power, then it may shift some.

    I'm glad you've come to your conclusion, but I'm also a puzzled as to your conclusion in regards my post on Atalanta (and, fwiw, the myrmidon, too, I think their toolkit is quite nice for their points). I recall concluding that her worth was always felt on the table, but very hard to quantify when compared to other snipers. In any case, This little thread is less about giving a tier-list while branding every unit as "meta", "off-meta" or "bad", and more my thoughts and explorations on each unit to try and come to a deeper understanding of the unit, the faction, and the game.
     
    #46 Kestril, Jan 16, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation