1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Karakuris, Remote Presence, Dogged and you - a question

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by LZ35SRX, May 2, 2019.

  1. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2018
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    221
    So, in today's game I first fielded a Domaru-Karakuri haris, and I've encountered a dilemma: how do actually RP+Dogged work?

    We have some clarifications in the FAQ for that - going to quote them here:
    According to the first, when your Karakuri first falls into Unconscious state, you have to choose, whether to Dogged or to gain second level of Unconsciousness. Yet the second clarification says you can Dogged the Karakuri when she goes into the second level of Unconsciousness. Now what does that mean?

    In today's game we chose to treat that as two possible entry points into Dogged - either you go Dogged on zero wounds, or you go Unconscious, then take another wound, and go Dogged on entering the second Unconscious state.

    But in discussion of the game later, a group of players from the community disagreed with this reading of the rules, saying that if you go Unconscious and take the ability to get second level of it - you can't get up Dogged at all.

    Thus my question - How does Remote Presence + Dogged actually work? And, a follow-up question on the first clarification - if you choose two Unconscious levels, do you lose Dogged for the rest of the game? Because the wording of that clarification says "when the trooper enters the Unconscious state for the first time".
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    8,535
    Likes Received:
    15,507
    Basically what you can't do is activate Dogged when going from level 1 to level 2 of the Unconscious state.

    To expand, it is possible to use both in the same Order, if an undamaged Karakuri takes 3 simultaneous wounds it can use Ghost to enter the 2nd level of the Unconscious state and at the same time enter the Dogged State.

    However if it has already taken 2 wounds previously and is in the first level of Unconscious state, taking another wound in a subsequent order does not let it enter Dogged because it is already Unconscious.

    Once the trooper is in the Dogged state the Ghost skill becomes irrelevant as any further wounds kill the trooper outright.
     
    #2 colbrook, May 2, 2019
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
    daboarder and chromedog like this.
  3. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2018
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    221
    How so? The second clarification says you can. And if we go with "Well, you have to choose either Dogged or two Unconsciousnesses the first time you go Unconscious", then the second clarification is pointless - because you don't have the second Unconscious state if you go Dogged.

    Let me give you an example. We have a Karakuri, that takes 3 wounds. Now, that would mean she has -1 wound right now. The first question would be - does she get Unconscious token, or does she die directly? That group of players in my community says that she dies directly - all states are calculated only after all wounds have been received, and Unconscious state happens only when a trooper has exactly 0 wounds. I would say that you calculate states after every wound, so this Karakuri would go 2 wounds - 1 wounds - 0 wound (Unconscious happens, you select RP or Dogged) - -1 wound.

    The second question, if we go with my reading of wound resolution, would be whether the Karakuri has two levels of Unconsciousness by default. According to the first clarification - no, she doesn't, because by wording you have to choose whether to go Dogged or to get your second level of Unconsciousness upon first falling to 0 wounds. Thus we get the situation, where you literally cannot go into second level of Unconsciousness before activating Dogged - causing the second clarification to be pointless.

    You see my problem? =)
     
  4. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    8,535
    Likes Received:
    15,507
    Read my longer explanation.

    The Karakuri had two levels of Unconscious, entering either of them lets you go Dogged, but moving from one to the other does not.
     
  5. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2018
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    221
    How can she have two levels of Unconscious, if, according to the first clarification, she has to choose - either she gets two levels, or she goes Dogged?
     
  6. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,800
    Likes Received:
    2,799
    Unconscious 1 and Unconscious two are, per the rules, two distinct levels of the Unconscious state. If you are already in Unc1 and you enter Unc2 in a later order, you can still activate V:Dogged because you have entered an unconscious state (the fact you were in one before is not relevant to the V:Dogged rule.)

    You have to move from one to the other to be in Unconscious 2 -- the same way hitting a Symbiont Armor model twice causes it first to enter its Inactive Symbiont Armor state and then the Unconscious state. Whether you do so in the course of one order or many is not relevant to how the rule works.

    You count through each state.

    First wound takes you down to 1STR. Second wound to 0STR (Unconscious 1.) Third wound to Unconscious 2. Now, since you've entered an Unconscious state at this point (you entered the Unconscious state from the Unconscious state), you can activate the V:Dogged skill and enter the Dogged state. If your Karakuri were to take 4 wounds in one order (which would be crazy with TI + BTS6, but its possible, I guess), you would enter the dead state, regardless of whether or not you chose to activate the V:Dogged Skill. Remember that the G:Remote Presence skill grants 2 levels of the unconscious state.

    Compare Dog-Warriors or Fractas for another example. If you do 3 wounds to a Dog-Warrior, he takes 1 wound, activates transmutation, and then takes a wound, reducing him to 1W, and then takes another W, resulting in the order ending with an Unconscious Dog on the table.
     
    #6 meikyoushisui, May 2, 2019
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
  7. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    8,535
    Likes Received:
    15,507
    You can only enter Dogged the FIRST time you enter the Unconscious state, as per the FAQ.

    Previous thread on this https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/remote-presence-dogged-interaction.1266/
     
    daboarder likes this.
  8. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,800
    Likes Received:
    2,799
    I think you are misinterpreting the phrasing of the entry.

    1: How do V: Dogged and G: Remote Presence interact with each other?

    When a trooper that has both skills enters the Unconscious state for first time, the player controlling it has to choose which to use.

    If the player chooses to activate V: Dogged, the trooper will ignore the effects of the Unconscious state and enter the Dogged state. That means that the trooper will enter the Dead state at the end of the Turn, or if the trooper suffers a new wound before the Turn ends.

    If the player chooses to use G: Remote Presence, the trooper will suffer the effects of the Unconscious state, but will gain a second Unconscious level before entering the Dead state and it could be repaired meanwhile.


    2: If a trooper with G: Remote Presence and V: Dogged enters the second level of Unconsciousness, can he use Dogged?
    Yes, because V: Dogged can activate when the trooper entered the Unconscious state.



    The first entry indicates that if you activate G:Remote Presence, you gain a second level of unconscious, and the second entry indicates that you can activate V:Dogged when entering the second level of unconscious. Whether this occurs in one order or over many doesn't matter.
     
    #8 meikyoushisui, May 2, 2019
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
  9. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,146
    Likes Received:
    9,658
    As I understand it, if you take 3W in one order/ARO, you can activate Dogged.

    But if you got 2W in one order, you have to activate Dogged then or be unable to activate Dogged later.
     
    El tito Zylito and colbrook like this.
  10. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,800
    Likes Received:
    2,799
    But that contradicts the second point of the FAQ, which is a complete and separate point from the first one (otherwise it would be part of the same question as the first one).
     
  11. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,649
    Likes Received:
    5,404
    He is not, you are
     
  12. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,800
    Likes Received:
    2,799
    Do you have a more substantive argument than "no u"?
     
  13. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,649
    Likes Received:
    5,404
    Years of experience and previous discussions on the matter

    Not to mention IJW

    Nor the fact that tranferring from one Unc state, to another is not ENTERING THE Unc state
     
    #13 daboarder, May 2, 2019
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
  14. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,146
    Likes Received:
    9,658
    If you take 3W in a single order/ARO, you would have entered Unconcsious-2, and can explicitly activate Dogged then. (Point 2)

    If you only take 2W in a single order ARO, you would be in Unconscious-1 and can explicitly activate Dogged then. (Point 1)

    IJW has come down firmly that if you are in Unconscious-1 at the start of an order where you take another wound (putting you into Unconscious-2), you cannot then activate Dogged. Because you were already in the Unconscious State.

    I don't like that ruling, but I do trust IJW to be correct.
     
    ambisinister likes this.
  15. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,800
    Likes Received:
    2,799
    If that's the case, the wording of the FAQ is wrong.

    2: If a trooper with G: Remote Presence and V: Dogged enters the second level of Unconsciousness, can he use Dogged?
    Yes, because V: Dogged can activate when the trooper entered the Unconscious state.


    This should read:

    2: If a trooper with G: Remote Presence and V: Dogged enters the second level of Unconsciousness from a non-Unconscious state, can he use Dogged?
    Yes, because V: Dogged can activate when the trooper entered the Unconscious state from a non-unconscious state. A trooper cannot use Dogged when moving from the first level of Unconscious to the second.


    I understand what both of you are claiming the intention of the rule is, but if that's what CB says it is, they've done a really poor job of explaining so in the rules/FAQ.
     
    Section9 likes this.
  16. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2018
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    221
    Well, RAW this is incorrect:
    Red emphasis mine. So technically you do enter an Unconscious state, just a different one compared to normal Unconscious state.

    Either way, I would love to see this corrected in the wiki and FAQ.

    And coming back to my second question - does Karakuri lose Dogged forever, if you choose to go into Unc-2? Even if, for example she gets knocked down, then an engi fixes her back to 1 STR, and then she gets a wound or two again?
     
  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,146
    Likes Received:
    9,658
    Agreed.


    You were still already in an Unconscious state.

    A G:RP model can take one extra 'wound' of damage before going to Dead (compared to a normal model).




    Did you go into either level of Unconscious that order?
    If you did go straight into UNC2 that order, then yes, you could activate Dogged then. Yes, even if you were repaired to 1STR at some point.

    But you cannot get knocked down in one order, then take a further wound in another order (while already in UNC1, from someone trying to kill the geishabot outright) and reboot from Unconscious at the start of an order into Dogged at the end.
     
  18. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2018
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    221
    I think you misunderstand my question, let me expand on it.

    We have the first FAQ, that states "When a trooper that has both skills enters the Unconscious state for first time, the player controlling it has to choose which to use. (as in either G:RP or Dogged)". The situation is as follows:

    Let's imagine there is Karakuri Roboko. She gets 2-3 wounds from the best hacking device - a HMG burst from brave yet sneaky Swiss Guard Nils, and goes into Unconscious state. As per the FAQ, now I have to choose, whether I want her Dogged or having Unc-2. I select Unc-2.

    Then, some time later, I have an engineer come and fix this Karakuri. She goes to 1 STR and goes to gunfight with Fusilier Angus. By some miracle of dice rolls, Angus outshoots her and poor Roboko falls to 0 STR again. Now here is the question:

    According to the FAQ, I have to make the choice between Dogged and G:RP the first time this trooper enters the Unconscious state. But logically if Roboko falls Unconscious after being repaired, it would be not the first time she enters Unconscious state. And because on her first Unconsciousness I chose to get G:RP, would that mean Roboko cannot go Dogged anymore?
     
  19. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,146
    Likes Received:
    9,658
    Hrm.

    Well, I think you can trigger Dogged later, but you're right that strict RAW does not support that.

    Paging @ijw !
     
  20. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,131
    Likes Received:
    14,620
    The two FAQ entries aren't independent, and 'first' in the first FAQ is referring to the first level of Unconscious.

    So:

    Example A
    A Karakuri suffers damage, taking it to 0 STR/first level of Unconscious - you must now choose between activating Dogged, or falling Unconscious and potentially making use of the second level of Unconscious. This fulfils the first FAQ, the second one doesn't apply at this point.

    Example B
    Karakuri suffers damage, taking it to -1 STR/second Unconscious - again you have to choose whether to activate Dogged, but if you don't activate Dogged then obviously the Karakuri will already be in the second level of Unconscious.

    Example C
    Karakuri in the first level of Unconscious (and hasn't activated Dogged) suffers 1 damage - as per the first FAQ, you will not be able to activate Dogged.

    No, you do not count through each state. The state changes once, in the Effects step of the Order. A full-STR Karakuri that takes three damage goes straight to the second level of Unconscious without ever passing through the first level, and if it takes four then it goes straight to Dead state without passing through either level of Unconscious.

    Again, this is not what happens. Transmutation only kicks in at the end of the Order:
    • Replace the user's model with his alternate form at the end of the Order in which he lost the first point of his Wounds/STR Attribute. From that moment on, the user adopts his alternate form's Troop Profile.
    • ...
    • If the user lost more than one point of his Wounds/STR Attribute during the Order, deduct the remainder from the new profile at the end of the Order.
    My emphasis. You don't sequentially count down through the different states or profiles. In particular, this means that all ARM, BTS or PH Rolls being made against hits will be made against the original profile. This is also the case for all other rules that involve 'cumulative' profiles, like Symbiont Armor or Ejection Devices.
     
    Sunabe, Section9, zapp and 4 others like this.
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation