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K1 weapons worth ?

Discussion in 'Tohaa' started by siri, Sep 5, 2019.

  1. siri

    siri Well-Known Member

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    Hi guys.

    When I first look at it I just think in a great ammo due to the zero armor.
    But then I saw the fixed 12 damage.

    What is your opinion about it ?
    When you see it being used if used at all ?
    What is the profiles you see being used ?

    Thanks
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Combis yes, they're as good or better against anything with ARM1 or more, which is the majority of the game. They're brilliant if you can get close to an HI or TAG.

    Snipers no, the loss of DAM and special ammo types makes them arguably the worst sort of sniper.
     
  3. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    This is a Mathhammer question, frankly.

    You have, usually, Double Action and Armor Piercing to make the comparison (usually on a MULTI rifle or sniper rifle). The math used to be, roughly, that only at native ARM 8 or so AP was better to DA. In this case, we are talking about DAM12 against 0 ARM... BUT Cover gets never ignored. So you fire at DAM 9 unless the troop has Marksmanship 2 (ignores cover) or pick the enemy with no cover.

    So you want it on a MM2 or very mobile platform.

    Bottom line, unless you plan to face heavy TAGs (Jotum, Avatar, Marut...) K1 has little use, and the best platform, to me, is the Unidron k1+tinbot, because it's a combi rifle under 20pts, costing 0.5SWC and, in Onyx, can link with Umbras and Nexus, and can be given supportware.
    Morat Vanguards are another possible good platform, but they are seldom chosen.

    Teucer is almost never selected with the k1 sniper loadout.
     
  4. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    As colbrook says, on the Combi it’s good as it breaks even against Normal ammo as soon as the target has ARM1, and gets progressively better the higher the target’s ARM. It also equals or beats Damage 13 AP ammo as long as the target has ARM1 or higher.

    Example: an ARM4 target in Partial Cover:
    Dam13 Normal ammo is reduced to Dam6.
    Dam13 AP ammo is reduced to Dam8.
    Dam12 K1 ammo is reduced to Dam9.

    @xagroth you’re getting mixed up with Marksmanship Level X, Marksmanship Level 2 has no effect on the ARM Bonus from Cover. And AP etc. will also be affected by the Partial Cover Bonus, so that’s not really relevant.

    Within Tohaa, a Viral Combi is probably better overall, but a K1 Combi is still decent against weaker targets and gets better in comparison, the tougher the target is. Especially those units that have high BTS.
     
    #4 ijw, Sep 5, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
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  5. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    If the oponent has ARM1, it is as good as a Combi, but more expensive. If the oponent has more armour it gets better. There is also the fact that K1 ammo is considered antimaterial, useful for some missions or destroying scenery.

    The Sukeul Lt. is a good carrier of the K1, because it is already a good specialist profile and a very good shooter (good enough that she might win fights even in the -3 range band if you need to take that risk).
    The Kosuil is also a good two-wound specialist, but I prefer the Boarding Shotgun profile because I usually choose another trooper to take the point of my Triads, and it'll only face combat as last resort. The Shotgun is also a nice defensive weapon for someone not exposed and hidden behind cover. It is also cheaper, although the CAP cost might be a problem.
    Aelis is fragile, and Regeneration makes her expensive, but she has a combination of skills/equipment that might be useful depending on your list. And while it is expensive Order-wise, the Cybermask + Triangulated Fire combo can help against difficult targets far away.
     
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  6. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    yeah, I use a loooooot more template weapons than MM2 units... And no, I did not mix it with MMX, since the only unit I have with that skill (Teucer) I haven't used since S9 or so XDDD
     
  7. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    Combi K1s are ok. They only loose to normal combis against ARM0 targets, and those are likely to die in a burst anyway. They are more expensive - yes, but they make your unit very flexible in relation to what it can engage with good chances of success. The k1 on the sukeul is ridiculously nasty because of the whole sukeul kit. Also, k1s give you easy access to anti-material ranged weaponry in case you need.

    On snipers its a trap. Going down from D15 to D12 makes the drop in power ridiculous.
     
  8. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I'll take a K1 weapon only if its attached to a profile I otherwise want, such as a Sukuel FO. Its not really in the ballpark of "things I will take on their own merits".

    The K1 Combi Sukuel etc is an ok choice against TAGs. But to beat a TAG, you still need to get good range, a good angle, and beat them in the face to face. Would never make it my primary anti-TAG option, as in the end you are still relying on a combi rifle and I find combis pretty inadequate as a *first choice* option for killing anything really.
     
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  9. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    What would be your Nr1 Tag Killer weapon in Tohaa?
     
  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    ...but you have Eclipse Grenades to position yourself in the 10-16 band outside of flamethrower range and inside of good range for the K1...
     
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  11. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Didn't say its impossible! But theres three problems with it.

    Firstly, the "magic spot" with the angle, distance, cover and TAG exposure needs to exist, and exist within a reasonable amount of order expenditure - and often it doesn't.

    Secondly, one issue I find with Tohaa is that we crumble on the back swing. If I move a Sukuel+2 triad into position to shoot a TAG, I end up with three models in a more exposed position instead of one. If those models are counterattacked effectively, I lose more points and crucially more orders (particularly, orders within the same combat group) than a one model equivalent unit from another force would. So now its spending orders to get close to the TAG, orders to kill a 3W strong-ARO model with your DAM 12 gun, and orders to move a three man unit away (which is clumsier than retreating a single unit). Thats a lot of orders!

    Third, at the end of the day, its a combi. A combi that ignores armour, but a combi that only rolls three dice base against a target with lots of wounds, a good ARO and possibly cover. Theres a reason that the premier attack weapons in this game are B4 or greater - dice are king! Every time I tell myself "B3 isn't too bad" (etc) I use a combi equipped model as a pointman and waste a bunch of orders and die. Not what I want to be leading with if I have access to better choices.

    We just largely suck at killing TAGs. That said, theres different options.

    The most effective option I've found is some variation on "hit them with Makaul". That requires the most orders and the greatest sacrifice (those Makaul are probably dead en-route or afterwards!) but it gets the job done better than anything else. Shit it gets a lot of jobs done to be honest.

    My second pick is, surprise surpise, a Sukuel HMG. I like the extended range and higher burst more than I like K1. I don't need to move to an exposed position to get into effective range and I can flank from further away. Against most TAGs, the Sukuel has strong enough odds to deter them placing it aggressively, and it has 2W and symbiomate options to help mitigate shit dice.

    I really, really wanted to say the Igao is a decent pick for it too, but I just never have any luck with that thing.
     
  12. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    So your primary anti Tag weapon is the HMG, cause makauls CC is even harder than K1 combi range. Sadly you are right against most TAGs the HMG is the best weapon as always. There are probably few TAGs there the K1 is better than the HMG. Jotum probably.
    But the K1 in triad is B4 so I still think its a good choice against the big TAGs.
     
  13. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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  14. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    So Jotum the K1 is worth it in its best range band, nice
     
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  15. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    After reading this latest posts, I've been trying different TAG's against the Sukeul HMG and Sukeul K1 Combi.
    Even if you "cheat" the system and choose that everybody is in its good range band (for example, HMG vs Combi and both getting a +3), the Sukeul Combi K1 is nearly as good as the Sukeul HMG in its worst, and way better in its best. So it's not because of the range bands, it is because of the ammo used.

    That being said, it is true that you need several Orders to get the Sukeul K1 in position, while using the Sukeul HMG is just a long string of Move+Shoot Orders until there are no enemies in sight. Also, the HMG huge range band covers lot of different distances, and you can reliably shoot down all kind of targets, either heavy or light armored.

    But lets not forget that the Sukeul Combi K1 is also a Specialist, and that means that getting close to that TAG is also getting close to the objectives. Not only that, but there is always that useful Flash Pulse, and this ITS season you might get a bonus for moving a Forward Observer outside your Deployment Zone. As an extra, the Sukeul Comb K1 is cheaper and doesn't cost any CAP.

    With AVA 4, you can easly build lists that take a couple of Sukeuls, one with the HMG or the Missile Launcher for the killing and another with the Combi K1 as a specialist with very sharp teeth.
     
    #15 Abrilete, Sep 10, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
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  16. siri

    siri Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes I think in this combination of 3 or 4 sukuel.
    But its 100 or more points.
    Again I note that the best solution for the majority of tohaa problems is Sukuel and Makauls
     
  17. Zachilles

    Zachilles Well-Known Member

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    If I'm going head on with any Tag type unit (TAG, Achilles, Tarik) my answer is a kerail with two surdas. Get two surdas in under smoke cover and attack with whichever one he doesn't punch, repeat this until a surda dies then walk in with the controller, if he attacks the controller take a free swing with the remaining Surda, if he swings on the surda pulse him with the kerail and deal with it on however you like.
     
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  18. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Another anti-TAG tactic that I used once and found very hilarious was to just take a camoed Igao and get in CC against the TAG. Then, position some long-range weapon covering the Igao so the enemy has problems getting something in CC with the Igao. After that, ignore it.

    If the enemy wants to use the TAG, he needs first to get rid of the Igao If he spends Orders on the TAG, he risks getting it killed because the Igao has a huge advantage in CC. If he wants to shoot the Igao, he needs first to position someone in LoS and then shoot against it, risking hitting the TAG. Or he can spend Orders getting some CC specialist to the Igao, while avoiding my ARO pieces, and after that he still needs to win in CC against the Igao (not an easy task between CC23, MA3 and I-Kohl).
     
  19. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    With the usual warning to watch out for anyone with Sensor, because Triangulated Fire means they're on a flat -3 MOD and can't hit your trooper...
     
  20. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    True, that's a nice little trick.
    But that reminds me that Aelis Keesan can apply the same trick in our favor; she has both Sensor and a K1 Combi.
     
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